[identity profile] paft.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Teri Adams, Head of Independence Hall Tea Party and School Voucher Activist:

Our ultimate goal is to shut down public schools and have private schools only, eventually returning responsibility for payment to parents and private charities. It’s going to happen piecemeal and not overnight. It took us years to get into this mess and it’s going to take years to get out of it.



In other words, Adams would like education to be, along with medical care, available only to those who can pony up the cash for it.

The article I’ve linked to includes a few quotes from people speculating about what drives the American right’s hostility towards public education. The ban on teacher-led prayer is invoked, along with the mercenary desire to funnel the money now paid into public schools into private hands.

I suspect it’s much more simple than that. Without universal education, the far right wouldn’t have to contend with so many pesky arguments about the facts of history, math, science, etc.

Crossposted from Thoughtcrimes

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Date: 16/7/11 17:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hikarugenji.livejournal.com
The article I’ve linked to includes a few quotes from people speculating about what drives the American right’s hostility towards public education.

I think it ultimately derives from the Religious Right, and more so than that from the "sola scriptura" doctrine. The idea that the Bible is the sole source of religious truth has developed into a deeply held suspicion towards any sort of book or learning that doesn't directly relate to the Bible. Add to this the basic secularism of the public school system and I think it's fairly easy to see why they're so hostile.

The other factor is the rather shaky basis for faith that many fundamentalists have. Even though they claim sola scriptura, many of them have read very little of the Bible and get their doctrines of faith more from preachers than from the Bible itself. When it comes to opposing viewpoints, they don't want to learn about them and evaluate them, or even learn about them in order to discredit them. They would rather simply not learn about them at all. This attitude extends to their children -- they do not want to expose their children to an environment where they will question their faith. To them, questioning your faith is the road to hell, not a road to a stronger faith. One wonders what they would make of Thomas Aquinas.
From: [identity profile] montecristo.livejournal.com
In other words, Adams would like education to be, along with medical care, available only to those who can pony up the cash for it.

Utter emotionalism. Also, your speculations are self-serving fantasies. It is the public system which is failing and producing spectacles of ignorance and miseducation, not private education.

Considering what you've written, more fundamentally, even including the extent that people teach what they know out of their own time and resources, as charity or other benevolence, education will always be available "only to those who can pony up the cash for it." Education is a service provided out of human leisure; it does not fall out of the sky on people like rain. It is only a question of how the "cash" is obtained: through force and coercion or through persuasion and free trade.
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Yeah, we all know that Christian fundamentalist madrassas are the perfect source of all real education about how the Civil Rights movement was inspired by Satan and Robert E. Lee was Jesus's second coming. The only viable educations to be found would not be Oral Roberts University but the Catholic education system.
From: [identity profile] hikarugenji.livejournal.com
Taxes are not theft. If you disagree, explain how a society can function with no taxes.

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I see.

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From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com
Hopefully, the idea will creep across America very slowly. Slowly enough so that people can see that as education for the masses is denied them, their ability to produce profits drops.

This will , hopefully, come to the attention of the shareholders who will insist on returning to the 3 Rs nd getting a workforce capable of reading written instructions, menus,and the like.

If not, well, Europe will emerge as a world leader if the Indians and Chinese don't get there first.
From: [identity profile] existentme.livejournal.com
"It is the public system which is failing and producing spectacles of ignorance and miseducation..."

Yes, and (let's leave the stupid right and the stupid left out of it for a minute) it's astounding how, regardless that is a fact, it is simply ignored in these arguments. It's as if the fact of education is entirely beside the point of the funding sources for it. "It doesn't matter how much it sucks, so long as it's paid for by someone or another, who cares?"

The systems broken, and it's not going to matter if you throw more fresh cash at it or keep throwing the same old cash at it, because, like a crumbling plaster wall, it can't be papered over with any amount of green paper, no matter who's supplying the paper.
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
So you are, in fact, in favor of the abolition of free public education on the grounds that taxation is theft?

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From: [identity profile] ytterbius.livejournal.com
Insanity.

Get off the fucking computer. Without public education AND public investment in scientific research over many many years you wouldn't have one no matter how many little green pieces of paper you might have access to.

I've gotten close, at times, to buying the Libertarian line, and I still think that Government should be very careful about how money is spent, but as time goes on I see proof upon proof that the Libertarianism (with a big L in particular) is utter madness, and dangerous at that.

I support raising taxes right now on the top 5%, particularly the top 1% or 2%. As it stands, they've been robbing the world blind, and have way too many suckers convinced of a taxes-as-theft ideology which simply heaps more and more power into an unrepresentative tiny minority of elites.
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
Public schools are actually generally pretty good. Not as good as the private schools with rich alumni and highly-paid teachers that is allowed to turn poor students away, of course, but still at least as good as the average private school.
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Well, we're taxed because we elect representatives that enact legislation allegedly in line with the constituents' reasons. It's not a wholly involuntary process, it's a democratic republic. If you're below 18, then I suppose it could be theft for you, but most people that age don't even pay taxes so it's really a non-issue for them.

We allow others to represent us because ordinary people do not have the time, energy, or education to properly manage the surrounding aspects that make up their day-to-day lives. This is a much better arrangement than leaving all these duties to private entities, because many systems require monopolies which leads to wholesale greed within private organizations, whereas public institutions are required to be transparent and carry a much harsher penalty for corruption. This is not true in all cases, but I've certainly not heard of the latest plumbing or roadwork scandal.

It's also possible to have private entities do this stuff, as long as it is heavily regulated to the point where it is impossible to exploit the clients which have no choice but to rely on them for that service. Where it is regulated to the point where it would be equivalent to a public service anyway. Very small incentives for corruption, very harsh penalties.

Society benefits much greater from laws that prevent exploitation and corruption than it does without. Greed and inflicting misery is human nature, like it or not, and there is an ironic study that states that some of the best leaders are also the worst people- that they have an inflated sense of ego and are motivated to exploit others for profit. For everyone under them, this is a great deal and they are likely to benefit, but for everyone else that person becomes someone who wants to get into their pockets and bank accounts. This is not true in all cases, in fact I won't even say most or half, but these people exist and they're self-serving to the point of criminal negligence.

Not to say that the best society is the most heavily regulated one, in fact many regulations in the US are highly beneficial to corporations as they enable government-mandated or incentivized monopolies to create huge entry barriers to competition. However, without regulation the same thing happens, as you can clearly see from Edison's destructive policies that forced Tesla into a paragraph of history, instead of a book like Edison. In fact, most corporate practices in the early 20th century, from robber barons to new industries, would cut out your eye if it would make them a quick buck. We do not want to return to those times.

So, could private enterprises run a cheaper (in net costs) and better education? Maybe, but it wouldn't be accessible to everyone. In the long run, an uneducated populace is highly detrimental to the growth of a country. Especially for America, who prides itself on its thinkers and innovators. Having a society of haves and have-nots is exactly the conditions that lead to a 3rd world nation.

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Date: 16/7/11 22:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lafinjack.livejournal.com
Taxation is payment for services rendered. Don't like it, move to Somalia.
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Date: 16/7/11 18:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Meh, the Right-Wing's a Reagan cult, in all senses of that term. Its hostility to the existence of a public sector and government from it making anything beyond the private sector and business shibboleths to be avoided. That in turn arises from their viewing privatization as a talisman to ward away all the nasties of an actual society inhabited by human beings. They never stop to consider that this only replaces the democratic infrastructure of governmental bureaucracy with the authoritarian structure of corporate bureaucracy and lead to a global Raj. It's why they want the education system of early Victorian England: they don't want government or society to exist.

So they'll simply abolish them and it will all fade away. It's such a terribly Marxist idea.....

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Date: 16/7/11 18:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com
It's why they want the education system of early Victorian England: they don't want government or society to exist.

Which is kind of ironic, because it was Victorian England that pioneered public education by putting kids in schools. Lord Shaftesbury and all that.

Mind you, you may have had a similar set up in the USA, I am not too well up on Stateside social history of the same period.

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Free Market Follies

Date: 16/7/11 18:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
From a show called the Fifth Estate, on CBC
ARGENTINA: A GRAND EXPERIMENT IN WATER PRIVATIZATION THAT FAILED (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/deadinthewater/argentina.html)

Re: Free Market Follies

Date: 16/7/11 19:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com
Thanks for the link.

The fact that baby milk formula has to be mixed correctly, with clean, hot water, is a big challenge for a mother who has no access to clean water, and is semi literate at best.

Breast milk is free of charge, requires no preparation and also contains many antibodies that will help the child fight off infections. back in the 80s, I worked as a volunteer to support the GOBI initiative.

It is hard to believe that basic needs like sanitation and clean drinking water are still issues in the developing world, but there you are - we are still up against the corporations.

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Date: 16/7/11 20:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
This is a problem, but for the wrong reasons. People invariably blame public schools, when it's how we educate period that are really causing the problems. With that said, more private schools with fewer bureaucratic mandates would allow for the type of educational innovation we need, but still...

The ban on teacher-led prayer is invoked, along with the mercenary desire to funnel the money now paid into public schools into private hands.

The former, yes, but the latter no. It's not about trying to "funnel the money" into private hands, but funneling the money away from the public black hole.

I suspect it’s much more simple than that. Without universal education, the far right wouldn’t have to contend with so many pesky arguments about the facts of history, math, science, etc.

Looking at the test scores and results of the ever-expanding public schooling, the right is losing that battle while still having the facts on their side. Facts being pesky like that and all.

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Date: 16/7/11 21:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

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Date: 16/7/11 21:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
The idea that private charities could fill the gap left by public education if they were abolished is ludicrous. Apparently this is coupled with the notion that private charities shouldn't be subject to any standardization laws as well, which would make getting to college from these 'schools' a nightmare if not outright impossible for the best colleges which would likely only accept applicants from non-charity private schools.

They say what they want, but there's zero consideration for what will actually happen if their fanciful libertarian utopia came to fruition.
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Date: 16/7/11 21:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foreverbeach.livejournal.com
Public "schools" aren't institutions of learning. The "students" don't graduate literate and numerate or with a command of science and history. Public "schools" are merely warehouses where kids' brains can rot several hours of the day. Kids would be better off finding a job or wandering the streets than wasting their lives away in public "schools".

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Date: 16/7/11 21:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
How exactly do libertarians advocate private charities taking care of social programs if they advocate a 'fuck you, got mine' mantra? Is the idea that everyone else will pick up the slack because they're too busy being captains of industry?

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Date: 16/7/11 22:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foreverbeach.livejournal.com
This amounts to the "devil you know" argument with elaborations. "We don't know what results a libertarian system will produce, therefore we will stick with this failed system."

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Date: 16/7/11 21:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Earlier it was pointed out that social spending is very much in line with Christian ideals of taking care of the poor, yet the religious right is almost entirely opposed to it?

Y U NO MAKE SENSE AMERICA?

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Date: 16/7/11 22:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foreverbeach.livejournal.com
If I understand the Christian ideal, it's voluntary charity, not forced redistribution of wealth. There's nothing noble about giving at the point of a gun -- nothing charitable about being forced to contribute. Charity has to be voluntary to be charitable.

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Date: 17/7/11 04:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
The chief concerns around public education are quality, value, biases and control. If public schools produced excellent educational outcomes at a reasonable price without imposing narrow ideological biases, and allowed parents and students a say in the content and delivery of education, no one would have a problem with it.
In other words, Adams would like education to be, along with medical care, available only to those who can pony up the cash for it.
If the alternative is a system where getting a decent education requires sending children to private schools, what's the difference? At least this way, reducing the enormous expense of an ineffective public system would leave some money in parents' pockets so they could afford to pony up some cash for their children's education.

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Date: 17/7/11 20:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
The best part is that communism and libertopia have the exact same end results.

You know what life was like before the FDA? There were many ketchup competitors, and they all used moldy tomatoes to create their moldy ketchup. One of the first things the Pure Food And Drug Act, the Act that essentially created the FDA in June 30th, 1906 by Theodore Roosevelt, addressed was moldy ketchup.

A few years later the company began selling ketchup, and much of their marketing focused on the fact that Heinz ketchup did not contain any rotten tomatoes—in stark contrast to many of their competitors. A relatively recent publicity piece about Heinz claims that “Henry Heinz recognized before most of his peers that pure food is not only good for you, but is also good business,” but the truth is that Heinz’ promise of a safe product was not itself sufficient to capture the ketchup market. By the start of the Twentieth Century, Heinz was a major ketchup producer, but so were several companies who padded their bottom line by mixing rancid tomatoes into their product.

Seeing an opportunity, Heinz joined the chorus of scientists, consumer advocates and government officials who were clamouring for federal oversight of the processed food industry, even sending future Heinz CEO Howard Heinz to lobby President Theodore Roosevelt in favor of a the Pure Food and Drug Act, which prohibited some of the processed food industry’s most revolting practicies and gave enforcement authority to the agency which would later become the FDA. In 1906 the Act passed, and most of Heinz competitors were pushed out of business.

Because Heinz was one of only a handful of major ketchup producers who were already in the business of mass producing ketchup solely from fresh tomatoes, they quickly capitalized on the vacuum that formed as the rancid ketchup industry collapsed. Heinz became the market leader, and it remains so today.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Food_and_Drug_Act

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/libertarians-are-dumb-or-why-we-eat-heinz-ketchup/blog-298247/?page=2

So basically when someone advocates a libertarian worldview, a good question to ask them is, "Why do you want me to eat moldy ketchup?"

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Date: 17/7/11 20:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
Is the converse that those who hate libertarianism love mega-corps?

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Date: 18/7/11 08:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com
I think there should be a voucher program for parents who want to send their children to private or parochial schools but the public education system needs to be fixed, not eradicated. Look at the issues of cheating in Atlanta public schools (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-07-12-Atlanta-schools-testing_n.htm) (and I've heard the Chicago area is being investigated as well). We need to put more funding into education, and less into sports and extracurriculars.

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Date: 18/7/11 08:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com
P.S. - Without universal education, the far right wouldn’t have to contend with so many pesky arguments about the facts of history, math, science, etc. - There are just as many stupid Lefties who were educated through the public school system. There are also a great number of highly intelligent, successful people who never completed even the high school level of education. Your point is moot.

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Date: 18/7/11 23:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
libertarians being the ones who argue that people will often engage the most patently obvious thing for the betterment of themselves/society

I'm making a new thread for this, because it's so funny. This is the exact same argument that socialists make. People naturally want to work and do the best that they can! People inherently want to help each other and bring up society to their level! Everyone is so altruistic and benevolent, how can socialism possibly fail?

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