[identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
The freedom to be the asshole you want to be on the internet is really a remarkable achievement of human civilization and modern democracy in the 21st century. But as it usually happens in many anarchistic systems, their members soon tend to get annoyed with it and start inventing some rules. And then more rules. And then institutions to enforce them, and dispense justice, whenever someone breaks them...

In some countries, the enthralling pleasure that haters feel from the fact that they can do just about anything on the internet, is getting gradually pushed against by the other breed of people who take upon themselves the hard task of a PC police, who'll bring peace and prosperity on the internets. So the net trolls, who used to be so confident in their anonymous invincibility before, are now beginning to tremble at the sight of the invasive menace of the online authorities, and they'd probably begin to think twice before crossing those lines that they previously deemed so fun and easy to cross.

For the time being these restrictions and the subsequent punishments only work in some separate cases, but still these cases are multiplying. On September 13, a British court sentenced 25 year old Sean Duffy to 18 weeks in prison, and 6 months on probation - currently the maximum sentence for "hating on the internet". Additionally, he's banned from using the social networks for 5 years. Not sure how this will be enforced, but there it is.

As a whole, the punishment came because he used some really cruel language on the internet, and the situation became pretty serious. Basically, Duffy the troll sat on the dock for choosing the wrong victim. Instead of writing spiteful and ugly comments in various known and unknown blogs like most of his fellow trolls, or spewing venom at banks, political parties, government institutions or junk tabloids like any self-respecting professional troll would do, he decided to infest the FB site of the late Natascha McBride.

On St. Valentine's Day, the 15 year old girl from Worchester threw herself under a train and died. Lots of relatives and friends and random people expressed their condolences on her memorial FB page. The reason for her suicide? Internet bullying by a group of trolls. Now, I'm almost hearing the response: "People have the freedom to do whatever they like in their online time, and they're responsible for their own actions there". And also: "This is just the internet, why so srs"? Except this was a 15 year old teenage girl, and you know how volatile kids that age are.

Further on, it was found that Duffy never knew Natascha personally. He just heard about her suicide on the news and he apparently couldn't bear to watch the whole mourning idyll. To the sad comments of her relatives and friends he soon responded with messages the sort of "I just took a nap on the railway, lolol" and "Mum, it's a bit hot here in Hell".

The devastated parents decided to take a revenge against the troll who believed he was invincible and unreachable. They filed a complaint at the police, then everything happened pretty fast. The internet provider disclosed his IP to the authorities and they found him at home. Not surprisingly, he turned out to be just some lame 25 year old wanker with awful amounts of spare time who was living on welfare and was spending most of his time at the PC without having or even doing an effort to seek for a job.

As a mitigating circumstance, Duffy's defense stated the fact that he had alcoholism problems and also a mild form of Asperger's. But the court was adamant. They decided that he has been perfectly aware of his own actions, and he deserved no mercy.

It also became known that this wasn't Duffy's first case of insulting the memory of a deceased teenager. Before Natascha, he managed to troll the pages of 3 recently deceased girls and a 14 year old boy. Seems like he had a fetish for dead teenagers. But this time Natascha's parents didn't just stay silent, they turned to the court.

Only the parents of 16 year old Haley Bates who died in a car accident, had written an angry letter to their MP representative in the British parliament. In result, in July the parliament discussed the actions of then still anonymous Duffy. The MPs of all parties agreed unanimously that this was appalling and the fight against internet bullying should be coupled with the relevant innovative legislation. But then everything settled down and nothing was done.

But this time Natascha's parents decided to go to the end. They didn't bother writing mournful letters to Parliament, relying that the MPs would wake up this time. Duffy was prosecuted under the regular judicial system - the court case was on charges of "insult of particularly large proportions". The court was unperturbed by the fact that the insult had been done anonymously on the internet.

Actually this is the second such case in Britain. Last year Jason Goody got the same sentence, 18 weeks in prison. The 36 year old unemployed man was also writing outrageous things about deceased people. Obviously, Duffy hadn't heard of that case because he believed he was invincible. But he got it wrong this time.

It's a really controversial topic - how far does PC stretch, and how free should people be to be assholes, regardless of the consequences? One camp says that Britain has finally given a clear signal to all potential fat-skinned psychopathic trolls who feel tempted to spew their bile on the inernet and the personal pages of tragically deceased people. Some say that the question of desecrating the dead may have been almost solved; but the living would, of course, appear to be somewhat more patient, but sooner or later their patience would run out too. Just one or two such cases would serve as an example. If two trolls spend time behind bars, the rest would reconsider their behavior. Some in this camp even go further, saying they're hoping that in a few years, one of the buttons under posts and comments won't be just a "Like" button, it won't even send a signal to the admin so they could ban the troll... It will send the info directly to the police, with all the subsequent consequences.

And frankly, this sounds kind of scary. It's not a surprise that Britain is leading the way in this crusade towards a police state in the name of correctness. I'll go a bit schizophrenic here and present the other camp as well. It has been very vocal in this respect. And it has a point too: it says, let's stop for a while and think about this. Where's the line? If we decide once what's "appropriate" and "acceptable", what's to guarantee that this line won't be pushed further the next time? Wouldn't we rather prefer to live in a world populated by the occasional troll or ogre, to the prospect of having holy bureaucrats defining what's the difference between good and evil?

Cynical assholes will always exist, no matter what we do. The different, even outrageous opinion will always offend somebody, you can never please everybody. We could say that some critical line has been crossed in Duffy's case, but where's the actual line between an acceptable insult and an insult that goes "too far"? And isn't that too subjective and arbitrary? Unless cynicism turns into violence (like in Anders Breivik's case), who are we to decide what's appropriate in terms of thoughts and words?

That someone cannot be banned from a particular social network might be a software problem of that network and/or the incompetent admin. But the one who knows how to subtly tiptoe along the acceptable line without explicitly crossing it, is very aware that public online speaking is like making a lot of noise at a party. Surely you're bothering the neighbors, but can anyone say where exactly is the line beyond which they're in their right to call the police?

Everything is so relative - sometimes the punishment of a real obnoxious moron may look like a good reason for joy and triumphant clapping, but on the other hand, aren't those who are seeking for disproportionate punishment for people saying bad things, actually the ones who are having behavioral and psychological problems that are more dangerous than the troll itself? Particularly because they pass for "mainstream" and dictate the rules in general because of their numbers?

After all, a mythological troll turns to stone once the sunshine falls on it in the morning. So to speak. But the delicate, thin-skinned, chronic "PC cops" who pretend to be exemplary citizens while banging the neighbor's wife and shirking from work late in the afternoon as soon as they see their boss' back, are probably taking away something far more important from the people around them - their freedom to think.

So those are the two camps. And I'm really torn, and I don't know which side to take. So I leave this to you, guys. Go ahead and convince me!

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Date: 22/9/11 21:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Cynical assholes, and murderers, will always exist. So let's stop pursuing murder cases. It isn't like we've stopped murder from happening. The idea is that even though these things will always be with humans, there yet remains a moral obligation to respond and account for them.

There is a difference between internet trolling and malicious stalking behavior designed to inflict harm and pain. The idea that the internet is some "free space" where morality no longer matters is... well, that's just weird and monstrous.

And yes, it will be a complicated and messy process as jurisprudence wrestles with new precedent and ways to examine severity, intent and outcome. But is this a reason to just abandon social obligations of the accounting for evil?

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 00:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Your reasoning seems flawed because I have it on good faith that making all drugs legal will get rid of drug problems.

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Date: 23/9/11 20:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
Well said.

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Date: 22/9/11 21:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
But the one who knows how to subtly tiptoe along the acceptable line without explicitly crossing it, is very aware that public online speaking is like making a lot of noise at a party.

I can think of a few, yes.

It's a very tricky subject indeed. Thanks for this post. I think people should be responsible for their action and be prepared to face the consequences from them. "Words don't kill people" is a stupid concept that's divorced from reality. So I'd rather seek for a balanced stance on this, and that's the hardest thing to achieve.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 21:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
I would be inclined to agree that words don't kill [adult] people, but they most certainly can HARM people. The "words will never hurt me" adage is bullshit - they might not be able to "break your bones" but emotional pain is real and should not be dismissed as trivial.

On the other hand, when you're a child, and not responsible for your actions, then yes, I think you can be held at least somewhat accountable for a suicide that can be proven to be directly linked to your abusive, harrassing, malicious behavior.

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Date: 22/9/11 22:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hardblue.livejournal.com
Maybe I skimmed too quickly, but what would they have done if the troll were in America? with the Internet being international. We have very strong free speech protections.

(no subject)

Date: 22/9/11 23:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] montecristo.livejournal.com
You have a point, despite how lamentably debatable the fact is that the free speech protections are still all that formidable in the U.S.

To play Devils Advocate though, speech IS protected but using speech to commit other crimes is not. People like to cite the hypothetical raised by Oliver Wendell Holmes in Schenck v. United States of someone shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater as a "reasonable test of the tradeoff between liberty of free expression and security" but that is to miss the context. There is no trade-off and the proscription on Congress' legislation regulating speech assembly or expression etc. is not at issue at all. The key to understanding why this is so is to realize that it is not the content of the speech for which the hypothetical shouter is sanctioned; it is the what the speech is designed to accomplish, which is context dependent. In a large field, empty of all but a small group of people or even one other person, the person yelling, "Fire!" would not be sanctioned, nor would he be were there an actual fire in the theater. The crime is not the substance of the speech. It is not "discussing a forbidden topic;" it is causing a panic.

Similarly, it is conceivable that certain forms of such trolling as the OP cites could be construed, not as protected expression, but of directed malicious harassment against a particular victim. That would be a tricky question, and something of a slippery slope, but were the issue to remain in the tort realm and not the criminal, it is conceivable that the legislation could be safeguarded to sufficient extent, perhaps by setting the burden of proof bar high enough, that it is unlikely to be amenable to abuse.

(no subject)

Date: 22/9/11 22:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] montecristo.livejournal.com
First off, the situations cited are likely overkill. Public exposure and shunning is usually more than sufficient to begin deterring this kind of wickedness. Then there is the deterrent factor that arises merely from having the perpetrator's identity revealed to angry victims and sympathizers to consider. When these are insufficient, there is always tort, which could conceivably be a recourse for the sufficiently victimized.

Some in this camp even go further, saying they're hoping that in a few years, one of the buttons under posts and comments won't be just a "Like" button, it won't even send a signal to the admin so they could ban the troll... It will send the info directly to the police, with all the subsequent consequences.

...on the other hand, aren't those who are seeking for disproportionate punishment for people saying bad things, actually the ones who are having behavioral and psychological problems that are more dangerous than the troll itself? Particularly because they pass for "mainstream" and dictate the rules in general because of their numbers?

"Hard cases make bad law."
John Campbell Argyll

"Mistrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong."
Friedrich Nietzsche

People change their behaviors in the face of changing circumstancs it is true. The problem with the people who are continuously in search of "hard cases" to engender yet more bad law to flatter their own egos or slake their thirst for vengeance or vindication is that those are the type of fools who tend not to realize that the monster they've built in the legal system can turn on them. Rule of thumb: any law named after some victim is highly likely to be bad law.

"What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? ... And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you – where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"
Robert Bolt, from "A Man for All Seasons" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Man_For_All_Seasons)

There's a reason that the First Amendment to U.S. Constitution forbids the government from punishing speech or thought etc. It is dangerous ground upon which to trust any sort of authority. There is a species of fool who thinks that any sort of legal device for "eliminating evil" from the world will only be used by the righteous and just, like themselves, and never contrarywise, by the rogues and fools they intend to persecute, to persecute them. It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences for a reason.

What's to stop the trolls and bullies themselves from using the magic "anti-troll button" to do their bullying? Nothing. That's what's wrong with it. What's to stop the people given the authority and the financial and political incentive and mission to "root out and arrest the obnoxious" from creating such criminals at their own whim, for profit or power? Nothing. That's what's wrong with it.

(no subject)

Date: 22/9/11 22:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Just to nit pick

When you "sit on the bench" you are acting as a judge.

When you "sit in the dock" you are on trial.

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Date: 22/9/11 23:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cill-ros.livejournal.com
I'm at a bit of a loss to understand exactly why this person was jailed. Had he bullied someone on the internet (I mean targeted someone in order to cause emotional harm), I would understand and agree with the ruling. He was obnoxious and abusive, but I don't see how that contravenes any standard criminal law. It would seem to fall more under slander/libel than bullying, but I understand that in the case of internet libel the onus is on the website host to remove offending material. (Don't quote me on that, I'm not an expert.)

That is not to defend trolling, but surely randomly deciding when it is deemed to be illegal is good for no-one.

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Date: 22/9/11 23:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
This isn't slander or libel, at least as broadly understood in the English legal tradition. That requires you to publish false things about a person, whereas this is just being a dick to a dead girl's family.

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Date: 23/9/11 21:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
"Had he bullied someone on the internet (I mean targeted someone in order to cause emotional harm), I would understand and agree with the ruling."

From my understanding of the situation (having read the OP) that's what he did, though. =/ And if his intent wasn't to cause harm? Then he should have backed down once told that it did cause harm. If you drive recklessly and kill someone, you get in trouble even though you didn't "intend" to hurt them.

(no subject)

Date: 22/9/11 23:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
In the US, this wouldn't be an issue. The First Amendment protects this type of speech against criminal sanction. The action also likely qualifies for civil damages under an intentional infliction of emotional distress claim.

This solves both issues: first, it removes the government from the role of arbiter of what's acceptable or not (letting the public, in the role of the jury, make the call), and second, it removes criminal penalties from conduct that is solely speech, which IMO should never be on the table with the First Amendment in existence.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 03:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
"it removes criminal penalties from conduct that is solely speech, which IMO should never be on the table with the First Amendment in existence."

this reminds me of:

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 00:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Wouldn't we rather prefer to live in a world populated by the occasional troll or ogre, to the prospect of having holy bureaucrats defining what's the difference between good and evil?

It's the same reason why I'd rather a 100 guilty people go free than to wrongfully convict one innocent person. That's how the system should be, to err on the side of freedom. A little mental inconvenience (in this example) is a very tiny price to pay for that.

This is why the 1st Amendment was added to the U.S. Constitution; the freedom of speech is important.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 00:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
I'd rather a 100 guilty people go free than to wrongfully convict one innocent person

Gov. Perry would probably disagree with you.

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Date: 23/9/11 01:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Actually words can and do hurt people: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/29/teenagers-charged-girls-suicide

Not that individuals have responsibilities for things like this. There is no society, only individuals, and governments and laws constrain true freedom.

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Date: 23/9/11 01:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
People can be as nasty as they want in the confines of their own homes or in private communications with their friends, but promoting and protecting rude, offensive and hurtful behaviour in public takes away from people's ability to obtain a reasonable measure of enjoyment from a public resource. Just as governments demand controls on industrial pollution, they are also right to enforce controls on those who would pollute public discourse.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 03:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] terminator44.livejournal.com
Comparing speech, any speech, to pollution is a dangerous precedent to set.

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Date: 23/9/11 02:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kardashev.livejournal.com
First, this kind of legislation is going to be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It won't be surprised if the UK gets hit triple hard by far more practiced trolls from all over the world.

Did I say more experienced? Yes, I did. The guys you mentioned were complete amateurs. The next wave of trolling will be by the sort of trolls who know how to spoof IP addys, etc. How are the Brits going to get a troll hiding behind a proxy trolling them from Russia? They can't. And there are organized troll gangs with a ton of experience at this sort of thing, many of these groups having members from 5 or more different countries. And you know what really keeps them going? The average internet user is too dumb or prideful to not feed them. Refuse to feed a group of trolls and they'll move on. Display vanity, hubris, stupidity, ignorance, or especially anger and they'll keep coming back and telling the rest of the troll community about the easy pickings. But no, there's always plenty of people trying to "pwn" the trolls that they rarely go hungry.

It's a really controversial topic - how far does PC stretch...

Um...trolling isn't a matter of being politically correct or not. A liberal trying to piss off conservatives for laughs with feminist rhetoric is still trolling.

aren't those who are seeking for disproportionate punishment for people saying bad things, actually the ones who are having behavioral and psychological problems that are more dangerous than the troll itself?

Yes. This is going to lead to so many lawsuits when people are just arguing or being blunt with their opinions get falsely arrested because some overly sensitive types make an erroneous police report.

Remember, there are a fuckton of people who think trolling means "he has an opinion I disagree with".

or spewing venom at banks, political parties, government institutions or junk tabloids like any self-respecting professional troll would do

Waitaminute...that doesn't necessarily sound like trolls. It sounds like a lot of regular internet users too.

Like I said, here come the lawsuits over erroneous reports.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 03:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
you just outed yourself, methinks.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kardashev.livejournal.com - Date: 23/9/11 22:34 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 23/9/11 10:46 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] kardashev.livejournal.com - Date: 23/9/11 22:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 02:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com
I look at it like this; the internet is "public" only so far as a club or bar is public - presumably anyone can go anywhere provided they meet very vague basic requirements BUT in doing so they become a member of that specific club and therefore can be thrown out at whim.

At the same time, "harrassment" is a very real and damaging thing which is not protected speech in America (or anywhere that I know of with a legal system) and of course that means that what constitutes "harrassment" must be determined on a case-by-case basis. The law has many times recognized that words can cause grievous harm and free speech does not equal the right to verbally abuse someone.

It is one thing to be a dick, it is another to single someone out and harrass them - inflicting pain upon them through your attentions

All the objective blathering in the world will mean nothing once it is some vulnerable member of YOUR beloved circle. People always talk about this as if its some kind of intellectual exercise and that makes it pretty damned clear that it hasn't affected them personally.

If someone was sending your mother/sister/disabled friend/father/grandmother/etc disturbing letters int he mail you could, depending on how far it goes, prosecute them. Why is "the internet" some sacrosanct place where a person can harass others without fear of reprisal?

I posit it is, in fact, the lack of social reprisal which enables this behavior so sharply. Since we cannot do much about that (the interwebby is a big place) we can instead attempt to institute legal reprisals.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 02:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com
and OH NOES! people will possibly try to abuse that?

uh, no, here in America you (John Q Citizen) are not the arbiter of who gets prosecuted, that's the job of a whole host of experts we pay with our tax dollars.

Civil suit is one thing, but making a law against internet harassment? No that'd be a criminal thing, which means any ole person does not get to willy-nilly prosecute whoever they got a grudge against this week. you'd have to file with your local prosecutor, possibly involve investigators, and they'd decide - on your behalf - whether a crime had been committed. That's their job. So don't even bring up that whole "OMG people will begin prosecuting people they disagree with!"
No, they won't be able to. That's not how criminal law works.

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 12:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
This is a bizarre precedent, mainly because (as has been noted) it is so woolly and inclusive.

Case-law, casuistry, call it what you will, can't stop idiots framing bad laws when they have been democratically elected: especially in the UK where Parliament has sovereignty within the limits of those international conventions to which we (the UK as a whole) are signatories.

Other nations don't interpret the requirements of say the European Court of Human Rights in quite the same way as we sometimes do. There is a petty-bureaucratic-mindset that certain types of English person find natural. This is not to be recommended, nor should we do what we always do, which is to blame 'Europe' and hide our collective heads in the sand claiming externality.

Truth be told, there's a certain kind of person who likes telling other folk what to do, and who will find justification for so doing in whatever way they can, and using whatever sources and resources available to them. They naturally gravitate to those positions where they can exercise their inclination.

Those of us disinclined to be prefects often spend our lives in pointless-but-amusing opposition to their petty-minded bureaucratic natures using only our ingenuity: it is, after all, the sporting solution. I think you can troll at a high enough level to amuse oneself, bait the opposition, and be perfectly good-mannered about it all. I can think of a couple of folk on here who….Oops, did I say that out loud?

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 14:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
How about stalking? Does that qualify as "meh", too? I mean RL stalking. I've been through that before.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com - Date: 23/9/11 14:38 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com - Date: 23/9/11 14:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 20:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
It's a difficult line to draw, but the line does need to be drawn somewhere. You're freedom to express yourself stops when you inflict harm on others. You're not allowed to just go punch someone in the stomach. The remarks "Duffy" made to the dead girl's family are the emotional equivalent of a gut punch, if not more.

It's going to be a challenge to prosecute malevolent stalkers, harrassers, and bullies, to say the least. But it is something that needs to be done.

Furthermore, as far as cyber-bullying a child goes - the rights and responsibilities of a free society extend only to ADULT citizens. An adult should be expected to be aware of what they're getting into online and able to take some trolling (as long as it doesn't cross the line to harrassing). I think there should be restrictions a bit tigher when you're dealing with a minor, since they aren't considered responsible and independent, and are, as the OP pointed out, "volatile". A 15 year old girl cannot be reasonably expected to handle severe trolling with emotional maturity. (Perhaps she was experience harrassment that shouldn't be allowed on an adult level - I don't know. But my point still stands that rules should be stricter when you're targeting a child.)
Edited Date: 23/9/11 20:56 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 23/9/11 21:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Image (http://wondermark.com/338/)

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