[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Ok, so in another post that I have no desire to get involved with the "Social Contract" was brought up. To which someone noted that they did not consent to it and could not withdraw from it and predictably someone else came up with the standard reply of "So you don't like it, then Leave" and this is what I do want to get into because it is such a common refrain among progressives who believe in a strongly imposed "Social Contract"

So to digress for a second, when discussing things like minimum wage and other labor laws the same people tho say "If you don't like the Social Contract then Leave" will argue that a choice which results in an unsurvivable result is not a choice. That is the employer is inherently more powerful than the worker because if the worker chooses not to accept the terms of employment the the worker often starves ergo he doesn't actually have a choice and government must protect them from the employer.

So how do you reconcile the two arguments in your heads?

I mean it is not like someone who disagrees with the "Social Contract" actually has anywhere to go. There is no unincorporated land anywhere on the planet for them to move to and lets face it, all of the nation states have remarkably similar social contracts. There is literally nowhere for them to go meaning that by the same logic you apply to labor law they still haven't got a choice.

Essentially in order to be consistent you either have to accept that a choice where one of the options is impossible to live with is still a choice or begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
The problem is that the Social Contract is in reality "I have a nuke, your argument is invalid." All the stuff that treats it as a societal version of a business contract obscures that fact, so long as it is obscured certain problems remain irresolvable. Unfortunately in modern times you're given the choice between corporate bureaucracy, accountable unto no-one, and governmental bureaucracy, accountable at the crudest to the rioting angry mob. I prefer the latter, other people like the former.

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Date: 28/3/11 00:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
The problem is that the Social Contract is in reality "I have a nuke, your argument is invalid."

Incorrect. Maybe you should consider a college class that would cover the subject.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
So how do you reconcile the two arguments in your heads?
By rightly dividing the truth that these arguments are faux-discussions with people using trite answers from the other side to invoke a sense of inconsistency or "gotcha" moments. Whe progressives say "just leave" they're mimicking conservative responses to a whole host of issues which are "just leave" themselves.

The problem is that people forget they're being ironical, (which is in itself a massive case of irony), and soon the only guiding prospect in these "discussions" is personal animosity...

It's just a bunch of donkeys braying at each other, having forgot that they were being ironical in the first place. It is a completely meaningless discussion.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Again, what's with the logic and reason in these kind of discussions? You're missing the point.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Essentially in order to be consistent you either have to accept that a choice where one of the options is impossible to live with is still a choice or begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.

Or, you know, you could just deny the whole ridiculous moral argument in the first place. Laws are not bad, taxes are not theft (by definition), and being subject to a government is not an unfair thing. If people want to make up their own morality, they have a helluva project ahead of them in imposing this new morality on everyone else. The One Man John Galt Syndrome: I Believe In Freedom My Way And Everyone Has To Agree And This Makes Me A Libertarian.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
I don't think your TOMJGS:IBIFMWAEHTAATMMAL slogan will catch on.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
We are born in to life with obligations, but also with benefits. Its part of the condition of living. Call it samsara if you want. Some people are born with lots of benefits, and some with not so much, but part of the being human thing is that the condition includes being part of humanity.

Being "humanity" instead of just humans is why we're not still running around forests hitting things with sticks and dying at 20 if you make it that far.

Some people try to make the argument that it is indeed consensual, but I don't think that's the way to go. I think its just life that we have obligations as part of the condition we're born in to.

In a democracy we have some power over the conditions, and we can try to maximize the benefit if that is our goal, but we agree that its better to have some obligations for the huge benefits than to have no obligations and not receive the benefits of being part of a civilization.

Taxes are one form of that obligation. Duty to your family, to country etc are another form. Taxes allow us to unify as a people and get big things done. Don't bring the 'government never does anything good' because that is blatantly and demonstrably false. We just disagree on what is good and what isn't.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whoasksfinds.livejournal.com
so our social contract applies to the entire world?

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Date: 27/3/11 20:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
There are social contracts. That's what society is. The extent to which we "impose" various provisions of those contracts is somewhat fluid. But to deny the notion entirely is to also deny sociopathy.
Edited Date: 27/3/11 20:37 (UTC)

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Date: 29/3/11 08:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anosognosia.livejournal.com
No, society is the organ of our essential relatedness. Social contract theory is a secularized form of divine command theory used as a myth by atomic individualists to plaster over the inability for DCT and atomic individualism to accurately account for the reality of human interactions.

Why on earth there's been a sudden swell of self-proclaimed individualists and nominalists decrying contract theory is beyond me. I assume it was mentioned in a blog somewhere.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
While I agree ideally, the problem is that:

1) lots of people don't have the means to just pick up and move. If they do, it is hugely expensive. If they don't get everything they wanted out of it, it can impoverish them and their family for a long time.

2) people do not have infinite knowledge and many many many don't know what things are like in other places, meaning they exaggerate the benefits or the downsides wildly.

3) Countries have finite space!

All of which...

From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com - Date: 27/3/11 22:50 (UTC) - Expand
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Leaning on Locke...

From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com - Date: 28/3/11 20:15 (UTC) - Expand

yup

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Semantics.

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Date: 27/3/11 20:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
I don't subscribe to the Social Contract theory.

I'm pretty sure it was done away with a long time ago in favor of Rights-based ethics.

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Date: 27/3/11 21:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
It seems baseless to me. Do we really 'have' rights? Or have we agreed to have and protect rights with each other?

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You have the right...

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Date: 27/3/11 21:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
I really like this "He said, I said" kind of exhange of posts tonight. It's like a chariot battle, only instead of chariots we're driving small-wheeled armchairs (with portable PC keyboards or maybe more advanced artillery in the form of laptops).

The war theater goes like this...

Guy A writes a post meant to call a certain reaction from certain guys B, C, D.
Guys B, C, D react as expected.
Guy A summons guys E, F, G to react to the reaction.
Guys E, F, G re-react as expected.

Then guy B makes a post to respond to guy A.
Then it goes all over again from the start (cos, you know, Post 1 became just too long and heavy to track).

I like it. Inexhaustible source of lulz. Okay, I might've not learned anything new in the process but still.

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Date: 27/3/11 21:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
I wish this wasn't so long so that it could be DQ'ed.

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Date: 27/3/11 21:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.

Hey, there might be a ground level opportunity in Libya within the next few weeks.
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
I encourage all disaffected minarchists, anarcho-capitalists, and other sociopaths-by-choice to take advantage of this limited time offer!

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Date: 27/3/11 21:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] capthek.livejournal.com
The geography of both capitalism and the social contract are actually very uneven. Pick a random place on the earth and then another and they will probably have very different and place specific relations of both of these kinds.
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Date: 27/3/11 22:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Or do you end up with father knows best monarchy? ;)

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Date: 27/3/11 22:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
This actually is discussed in the philosophy of social contract theory. If a ruler treats his serfs like crap but says they can leave whenever they want, though they have no money or marketable skills and can't read, are they really free to leave? Is the cost of leaving not accounted for? What about a similar situation in a liberal republic?

At this point, people who want to create their wholly new government have to live on a boat, under the sea, or in space. Generally not possible yet, but might be soon. But what about their kids? They didn't ratify the charter under which they were born, so is it fair that they be expected to follow it? I don't remember what the answer to that is, but I know that practically speaking we can't have long-standing governments without it.

Divine right or social contract

Date: 27/3/11 22:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Let us not forget that the idea of a social contract was not intended to rationalize the totalitarian tendencies of its more recent usage. Instead, it was a replacement for the divine right of kings to own your posterior (sovereign derives from Latin super anus). Even the despot governs by contract. His men receive rewards in return for their service in keeping him alive. Likewise, Federal agents get their contractual rewards for keeping you in the rat race of a slave society.

As for escape from subjugation, that is exactly why this stuff (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1019&bih=595&q=marijuana&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=) is cultivated.

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Date: 27/3/11 23:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
Actually, what do you think about the social contract and practical consequences, and how they relate to your other positions on government responsibilities?

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Date: 28/3/11 00:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com
If you refuse to consent to a social contract, then why don't you kill me and steal my wallet?
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From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com - Date: 28/3/11 03:43 (UTC) - Expand
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No red herring here

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Agreed!

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Date: 28/3/11 01:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I think you've presented a false dichotomy. As was said earlier, I think the "why don't you leave" is just part of the meme "I'm moving to Canada". Of course you can't just up and leave, but that's why you have to be socially involved. The problem with the social contract is the idea that contracts are voluntary, which the social contract clearly isn't. It's more of an obligation. You have an obligation to live within the rules that your society has deemed appropriate AND you have an obligation to be active in changing those things you don't agree with; this includes convincing others to agree to your contract. I think this is where Libertarians lose out, they are inherently selfish and egotistical, and as a result see convincing others they are right as unnecessary and beneath them.

There's lots of aspects of the social contract of my country that I don't like, but most of that are social mores; so I have selected a social circle that enhance my life and I am actively working to leaving the city to somewhere where there are less people (the way people interact in the city is not something I agree with).

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Date: 28/3/11 02:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
I mean it is not like someone who disagrees with the "Social Contract" actually has anywhere to go. There is no unincorporated land anywhere on the planet for them to move to and lets face it, all of the nation states have remarkably similar social contracts. There is literally nowhere for them to go meaning that by the same logic you apply to labor law they still haven't got a choice.

*points south* Antarctica is that way. I believe there are some old whaling islands that you can claim. I understand that there's some structures still standing on them too.

begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.

Oh, I don't need to advocate one. That's your problem. Heck, I'll even ship you down there and provide you with a tent, warm clothing, and six months of food so that you can get started. Enjoy your nation building!

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Date: 28/3/11 02:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Well, you can't really do Antarctica as any area that is not part of a country is under treaty to not be claimed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System

I wish it weren't true sort of so people really could go live there. What, you don't like it because its frozen and lifeless? That's too bad, those other things are property why do you hate capitalism? I'd love to go live on the Mediterranean coast of France if I felt like it but unfortunately I don't have that sort of entitlement.

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Date: 28/3/11 17:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
The social contract cannot be opt-in.

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