The Social Contract.
27/3/11 16:14![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
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Ok, so in another post that I have no desire to get involved with the "Social Contract" was brought up. To which someone noted that they did not consent to it and could not withdraw from it and predictably someone else came up with the standard reply of "So you don't like it, then Leave" and this is what I do want to get into because it is such a common refrain among progressives who believe in a strongly imposed "Social Contract"
So to digress for a second, when discussing things like minimum wage and other labor laws the same people tho say "If you don't like the Social Contract then Leave" will argue that a choice which results in an unsurvivable result is not a choice. That is the employer is inherently more powerful than the worker because if the worker chooses not to accept the terms of employment the the worker often starves ergo he doesn't actually have a choice and government must protect them from the employer.
So how do you reconcile the two arguments in your heads?
I mean it is not like someone who disagrees with the "Social Contract" actually has anywhere to go. There is no unincorporated land anywhere on the planet for them to move to and lets face it, all of the nation states have remarkably similar social contracts. There is literally nowhere for them to go meaning that by the same logic you apply to labor law they still haven't got a choice.
Essentially in order to be consistent you either have to accept that a choice where one of the options is impossible to live with is still a choice or begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.
So to digress for a second, when discussing things like minimum wage and other labor laws the same people tho say "If you don't like the Social Contract then Leave" will argue that a choice which results in an unsurvivable result is not a choice. That is the employer is inherently more powerful than the worker because if the worker chooses not to accept the terms of employment the the worker often starves ergo he doesn't actually have a choice and government must protect them from the employer.
So how do you reconcile the two arguments in your heads?
I mean it is not like someone who disagrees with the "Social Contract" actually has anywhere to go. There is no unincorporated land anywhere on the planet for them to move to and lets face it, all of the nation states have remarkably similar social contracts. There is literally nowhere for them to go meaning that by the same logic you apply to labor law they still haven't got a choice.
Essentially in order to be consistent you either have to accept that a choice where one of the options is impossible to live with is still a choice or begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:18 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 28/3/11 00:14 (UTC)Incorrect. Maybe you should consider a college class that would cover the subject.
(no subject)
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Date: 27/3/11 20:21 (UTC)By rightly dividing the truth that these arguments are faux-discussions with people using trite answers from the other side to invoke a sense of inconsistency or "gotcha" moments. Whe progressives say "just leave" they're mimicking conservative responses to a whole host of issues which are "just leave" themselves.
The problem is that people forget they're being ironical, (which is in itself a massive case of irony), and soon the only guiding prospect in these "discussions" is personal animosity...
It's just a bunch of donkeys braying at each other, having forgot that they were being ironical in the first place. It is a completely meaningless discussion.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)Or, you know, you could just deny the whole ridiculous moral argument in the first place. Laws are not bad, taxes are not theft (by definition), and being subject to a government is not an unfair thing. If people want to make up their own morality, they have a helluva project ahead of them in imposing this new morality on everyone else. The One Man John Galt Syndrome: I Believe In Freedom My Way And Everyone Has To Agree And This Makes Me A Libertarian.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:26 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:24 (UTC)Being "humanity" instead of just humans is why we're not still running around forests hitting things with sticks and dying at 20 if you make it that far.
Some people try to make the argument that it is indeed consensual, but I don't think that's the way to go. I think its just life that we have obligations as part of the condition we're born in to.
In a democracy we have some power over the conditions, and we can try to maximize the benefit if that is our goal, but we agree that its better to have some obligations for the huge benefits than to have no obligations and not receive the benefits of being part of a civilization.
Taxes are one form of that obligation. Duty to your family, to country etc are another form. Taxes allow us to unify as a people and get big things done. Don't bring the 'government never does anything good' because that is blatantly and demonstrably false. We just disagree on what is good and what isn't.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:26 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 27/3/11 20:36 (UTC)Perhaps you haven't heard...
Date: 27/3/11 20:40 (UTC)Re: Perhaps you haven't heard...
From:Re: Perhaps you haven't heard...
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Date: 29/3/11 08:15 (UTC)Why on earth there's been a sudden swell of self-proclaimed individualists and nominalists decrying contract theory is beyond me. I assume it was mentioned in a blog somewhere.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 20:44 (UTC)1) lots of people don't have the means to just pick up and move. If they do, it is hugely expensive. If they don't get everything they wanted out of it, it can impoverish them and their family for a long time.
2) people do not have infinite knowledge and many many many don't know what things are like in other places, meaning they exaggerate the benefits or the downsides wildly.
3) Countries have finite space!
All of which...
From:Leaning on Locke...
From:Life liberty and property isn't as simple as most people that claim to want it to be.
From:yup
From:Semantics.
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Date: 27/3/11 20:50 (UTC)I'm pretty sure it was done away with a long time ago in favor of Rights-based ethics.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 21:02 (UTC)(no subject)
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From:You have the right...
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Date: 27/3/11 21:14 (UTC)The war theater goes like this...
Guy A writes a post meant to call a certain reaction from certain guys B, C, D.
Guys B, C, D react as expected.
Guy A summons guys E, F, G to react to the reaction.
Guys E, F, G re-react as expected.
Then guy B makes a post to respond to guy A.
Then it goes all over again from the start (cos, you know, Post 1 became just too long and heavy to track).
I like it. Inexhaustible source of lulz. Okay, I might've not learned anything new in the process but still.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 21:16 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 27/3/11 21:20 (UTC)Hey, there might be a ground level opportunity in Libya within the next few weeks.
It'd be easy to change the name to Libertarya on the letterhead.
Date: 28/3/11 00:26 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 21:42 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 22:11 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 22:38 (UTC)At this point, people who want to create their wholly new government have to live on a boat, under the sea, or in space. Generally not possible yet, but might be soon. But what about their kids? They didn't ratify the charter under which they were born, so is it fair that they be expected to follow it? I don't remember what the answer to that is, but I know that practically speaking we can't have long-standing governments without it.
Divine right or social contract
Date: 27/3/11 22:42 (UTC)As for escape from subjugation, that is exactly why this stuff (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1019&bih=595&q=marijuana&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=) is cultivated.
(no subject)
Date: 27/3/11 23:00 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 28/3/11 00:48 (UTC)(no subject)
From:No red herring here
From:Agreed!
From:(no subject)
Date: 28/3/11 01:27 (UTC)There's lots of aspects of the social contract of my country that I don't like, but most of that are social mores; so I have selected a social circle that enhance my life and I am actively working to leaving the city to somewhere where there are less people (the way people interact in the city is not something I agree with).
(no subject)
Date: 28/3/11 02:41 (UTC)*points south* Antarctica is that way. I believe there are some old whaling islands that you can claim. I understand that there's some structures still standing on them too.
begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.
Oh, I don't need to advocate one. That's your problem. Heck, I'll even ship you down there and provide you with a tent, warm clothing, and six months of food so that you can get started. Enjoy your nation building!
(no subject)
Date: 28/3/11 02:53 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System
I wish it weren't true sort of so people really could go live there. What, you don't like it because its frozen and lifeless? That's too bad, those other things are property why do you hate capitalism? I'd love to go live on the Mediterranean coast of France if I felt like it but unfortunately I don't have that sort of entitlement.
(no subject)
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Date: 28/3/11 03:12 (UTC)(no subject)
From:That's what they keep telling us.
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From:The alamo!
From:Excellent, Smithers!
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Date: 28/3/11 17:18 (UTC)