[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Ok, so in another post that I have no desire to get involved with the "Social Contract" was brought up. To which someone noted that they did not consent to it and could not withdraw from it and predictably someone else came up with the standard reply of "So you don't like it, then Leave" and this is what I do want to get into because it is such a common refrain among progressives who believe in a strongly imposed "Social Contract"

So to digress for a second, when discussing things like minimum wage and other labor laws the same people tho say "If you don't like the Social Contract then Leave" will argue that a choice which results in an unsurvivable result is not a choice. That is the employer is inherently more powerful than the worker because if the worker chooses not to accept the terms of employment the the worker often starves ergo he doesn't actually have a choice and government must protect them from the employer.

So how do you reconcile the two arguments in your heads?

I mean it is not like someone who disagrees with the "Social Contract" actually has anywhere to go. There is no unincorporated land anywhere on the planet for them to move to and lets face it, all of the nation states have remarkably similar social contracts. There is literally nowhere for them to go meaning that by the same logic you apply to labor law they still haven't got a choice.

Essentially in order to be consistent you either have to accept that a choice where one of the options is impossible to live with is still a choice or begin to advocate the creation of a nation somewhere on the earth for those anti social souls who do not want to be part of your social contracts.

(no subject)

Date: 27/3/11 22:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
I just worry when we act like rights are 'natural' or even 'god given' say, that we take them for granted and assume we'll just always have them, naturally. I also worry that people don't question the cost or value of the rights. It makes an opportunity to claim that something is just a 'natural right' and it becomes unquestionable in the literal sense. Its value becomes infinity and we can't question whether it is right.

(no subject)

Date: 27/3/11 22:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Like the other guy said, we have rights and duties: If we accept that we have certain rights with each other under law, then we have a duty to protect the same rights of others.

I mean, if you want to boil it down you don't need a government for rights particularly, but definitely it's good to consider them as something agreed upon by a consensus of people. Natural/divine rights are and always will be just an opinion.

(no subject)

Date: 27/3/11 22:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
I think as soon as you claim to have any sort of social obligation and duty you have made for yourself a 'government'. :P

(no subject)

Date: 27/3/11 23:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Well, yes, we're all autonomous beings. Everyone has their own government.

At the heart of Kant's moral theory is the position that rational human wills are autonomous. Kant saw this as the key to understanding and justifying the authority moral requirements have over us. As with Rousseau, whose views influenced Kant, freedom does not consist in being bound by no law, but by laws that are in some sense of one's own making. The idea of freedom as autonomy thus goes beyond the merely ‘negative’ sense of being free from influences on our conduct originating outside of ourselves. It contains first and foremost the idea of laws made and laid down by oneself, and, in virtue of this, laws that have decisive authority over oneself.

Basically, how it applies to others is that they recognize your autonomy and you recognize theirs. If you want to call that a government, fine, I'm no philosophical scholar so I'll leave you to that.

(no subject)

Date: 27/3/11 22:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
According to modern usage, rights are something someone else has to provide for free.

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