Pinochet Nostalgia
7/7/13 11:48![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
From an unsigned editorial in the Wall Street Journal: Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile's Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy.
The anonymous writers of this piece know perfectly well what they are saying and what they are doing. They are saying that "free-market reform" and a "transition to democracy" sometimes requires the vicious and murderous repression of anyone who openly opposes "free-market reform." They are saying that a leftist like Salvador Allende being legally elected to office does not qualify as "democracy," and warrants a violent overthrow so that "true" democracy -- one where people on the left have no real say or influence -- can flourish.
They are putting this on their editorial page because they know rancid nostalgia for a torturer and killer of leftists and liberals will appeal, not just to the current base Republican "base," but to the influential monied interests determined to hang on to their power in spite of growing popular anger and skepticism.
Pinochet fans on the lower levels, right wing bloggers and their commenters, etc., tend to be fairly direct about what they find appealing in Pinochet. The idea of forcibly removing, not just liberal and leftist politicians, but their liberal and leftist neighbors from the public sphere makes them happy. Hence the emphasis on guns, on changing the political landscape, not through elections and legislation, but by raw, physical force. The apologists for Pinochet on the upper levels, however, often adopt an air of unfocussed euphemism --"Took power amid chaos" for someone blasting his way into power using military force, "midwifed a transition to democracy" for murdering and torturing thousands of citizens.
I'm no mind-reader, so I can't say for certain to what extent these high level Pinochet fans personally embrace the violence of Pinochet's regime. It often seems more a matter of deliberately unfocussing their eyes and carefully looking somewhere other than the blood-spattered walls of the Villa Grimaldi, while congratulating themselves on their own clear-sighted realism. They want what they want, and if they can't get it through suppressing the vote, gerrymandering, or other subversions of democracy, well, sometimes what Jonah Goldberg so elegantly referred to as "dispatching souls" is necessary.
If someone took this comparison literally and decided American needed a Pinochet and they were going to step up to the plate, would the reaction from those high-level Pinochet apologists include an agonized reassessment of their fondness for the Chilean dictator?
Why would it? For all their euphemisms, they know perfectly well what Pinochet did. If they could rationalize what Pinochet did in Chile, and wish for it to happen in Egypt why would they not rationalize some free-market right winger in the military doing it here?
*
(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 20:07 (UTC)Seventeen years is one Hell of a long birth.
(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 20:21 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 16:54 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 20:24 (UTC)" base Republican "base,"...points for that, but even more points showing that the anti-Morsi group is " the influential monied interests determined to hang on to their power in spite of growing popular anger and skepticism. "
I'm not really sure how you extrapolated from your italicized header into " why would they not rationalize some free-market right winger in the military doing it here? "
But I'm glad you did because after reading your post and the editorial several times I am ready to move a postulate of mine into an axiom: "Context in an internet discussion only matters if it fits my position." Thank you
(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 20:37 (UTC)It's not the "anti-Morsi group" who I consider "influential monied interests etc." It's the author or authors of this piece, and much of its intended audience.
If the authors would consider a "Pinochet" beneficial to Egypt, why would they not consider a Pinochet beneficial to the US? Is political murder and torture only acceptable when inflicted on non-American populations?
Your postulate certainly explains a lot about some of your past posts, but it's not one I embrace.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 22:13 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 22:29 (UTC)Describing Pinochet as someone "who took power amid chaos" and "midwifed a transition to democracy" certainly indicates admiration for his regime.
P: It doesn't take a fondness for Pinochet to recognize that, whatever happened in the aftermath of the coup and the years of authoritarianism, Chile today is a free, liberal, constitutional, self-governing nation with multiple parties, tolerance, civil rights, a vibrant culture and economic opportunity.
Chile had these things before Pinochet took power. Under Pinochet, Chile was not free, not liberal, not constitutional, not multi-party or tolerant, and certainly no respecter of civil rights. It takes a staggering level of cynicism to ascribe Chile's current freedom to the man who spent years destroying freedom in Chile.
P: The road left untaken is easy to romanticize.
It's not "romanticizing" to point out that a country where dissenters are not imprisoned, tortured, and murdered in masses is a more free, more open, and more healthy country than a country where dissenters are imprisoned, tortured and murdered in masses.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 00:44 (UTC)FACT: Germany was better off after WWII than before it, ergo, Hitler was awesome, amirite?
Pinochet's economics were disastrous for regular Chileans. GDP went up, but so did unemployment and poverty. If you weren't in the ruling elite, you got nothing (well, worse than nothing, you got disappeared a lot of the time). The only thing that kept the government solvent during his rule was the state owned mining company; in other words, the exact opposite to what his policy was.
Chile is the example that disproves neo-liberal economics. Trying to pretend otherwise is negationist revisionism at it's worst.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 03:04 (UTC)I agree with anfalacios: Chile succeeded in spite of Pinochet, not because of him.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 05:58 (UTC)Maybe if they had said this about Syria it would hold water, but there is still hope that Egypt can come out of this without a few thousand people being killed by the government and less than seventeen years of dictatorship.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 10/7/13 11:56 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 7/7/13 22:59 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 00:31 (UTC)Wow...
Really?
I guess if your perspective is "what's good for America is good for democracy" then an authoritarian kleptocrat selling his countries assets to US corporations whilst simultaneously acting as a labour enforcer for those corporations is probably a good role model. It'll suck for the Egyptians though.
Mostly I'm just shocked there are people out there who still don't have Pinochet on their list of the 20th centuries biggest monsters.
(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 00:46 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 00:59 (UTC)In other words, your reality is wrong, even if you think the neo-libs haven't gone far enough, they definitely are not beaten, they are winning and getting stronger.
Or you can keep making stuff up to fit that narrative you want to tell yourself.
(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 03:04 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 14:23 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 16:52 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 10/7/13 19:27 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 07:08 (UTC)Reading the comments, there doesn't seem to be much nostalgia among the Republican "base" for Pinochet. I didn't read all of the comments in this article, but the ones I did read generally either Obama bashing or saying "Pinochet, WTF?!?" The appeal to the Republican "base" seems very limited.
(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 14:22 (UTC)Hence the emphasis on guns, on changing the political landscape, not through elections and legislation, but by raw, physical force.
Why should the GOP want to use force when legislation and moreover Big Business lobbying is serving perfectly well?
Also, did Chile have the same checks and balances that the U.S. has? My guess is, no. But all countries are the same so if it happens in one place that means it is automatically in danger of happening everywhere else that is vaguely similar, right?
(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 14:33 (UTC)Over the long term, demographics are working against them. Given the amount of money and power involved, I can easily imagine, some years down the line, voter suppression and gerrymandering not working any more and powerful interests resorting to raw physical force.
bd: Also, did Chile have the same checks and balances that the U.S. has? My guess is, no. But all countries are the same so if it happens in one place that means it is automatically in danger of happening everywhere else that is vaguely similar, right?
Our checks and balances have taken one hell of a beating since the Bush administration. We have, for instance, an increasingly militarized police force blurring the lines between military and police action. For the record, though, I'm not positing a coup exactly like what happened in Chile. For one thing, we don't have the equivalent of a larger, more powerful and wealthy country deliberately destabilizing us to soften us up for a military coup.
This is more about the use of violence in one form or another.
(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 16:50 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 8/7/13 16:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10/7/13 11:51 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10/7/13 16:38 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: