[identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
The Affordable Care Act, commonly dubbed Obamacare, turned 1 year old last week.  The confusion over this law has gone from 55% to 53% in that year's time.  There has been a lot of discussion surrounding the law, but not a lot of information about it.  There has been mischaracterizations about it with monikers such as "Death Panels" and "Government Run Healthcare".  There are claims that the government, as opposed to insurance companies, come between you and your doctor.  There has been attempts to adjudicate from the floor of Congress by declaring the law unconstitutional before the Supreme Court has had an opportunity to rule on it; and calling for its repeal.  Some claim that the law has gone too far; and others, like consumer activist Ralph Nader, who claims it didn't go far enough.

Nancy Pelosi stated "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.”.  The statement seemed pretty ridiculous at the time, but considering the ongoing confusion, the discussion seems to have been about the ideology surrounding it and very little about the substance of the law itself.

Many Americans count on Consumer Report reviews of products before making a market decision.  Many find the Consumer Reports review to be the final and determining factor in some of their biggest buying decisions.  This is what Consumer Reports had to say about the Health Care law.  Interestingly enough, they also include a descriptive PDF download that includes the features in plain English.

What do you think it would take for America to have a discussion about what the Affordable Care Act is and away from personal opinion of what it should be?

(no subject)

Date: 30/3/11 00:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Yes, Colin Powell said he lied to prove that Saddam, after eight years with both Cold War superpowers aiding him of failing to destroy the Islamic Republic of Iran and then after a losing war with the United States was a WMD superpower that was the greatest threat the USA had seen since WWII.

(no subject)

Date: 30/3/11 11:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
In your alternate history this whole speech must have never happened:

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html

(no subject)

Date: 30/3/11 20:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
The speech wasn't a lie, unless you think Powell knew he was saying false things.

(no subject)

Date: 30/3/11 20:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
There are some occasions where intent does not matter. I'm sure LBJ believed there was a second attack on the USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin. That doesn't mean there was one.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 00:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
Intent is not magical. (http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/)

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 01:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
This isn't about a slur, this is about an action that requires intent. If it's not raining, but two people say it's raining, and only one of them knows for a fact it's not raining, they're not both liars.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 01:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
I would conclude that both are liars. One is lying out of maliciousness and the other is lying out of ignorance.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 01:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
How can you lie out of ignorance? Isn't being ignorant just being ignorant?

More to the point, how can you unintentionally lie? Can you be ignorantly honest?

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 01:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
Isn't being ignorant just being ignorant?

Ignorance is never an excuse.

how can you unintentionally lie?

By being ignorant and stating a falsehood while being ignorant.

Can you be ignorantly honest?

Yes.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 22:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
And actually he did know this. CIA leader Tenet had actually said there were no WMDs, this was before the invasion. The Bush Administration deliberately quashed that report.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd

No doubt this, too, must be a lie from that all-powerful Liberal Jew Soros.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 22:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
From your link:

Secretary of State Powell, in preparation for his presentation of evidence of Saddam's WMD to the United Nations Security Council on Feb. 5, 2003, spent days at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., and had Tenet sit directly behind him as a sign of credibility. But Tenet, according to the sources, never told Powell about existing intelligence that there were no WMD, and Powell's speech was later revealed to be a series of falsehoods.


Even if we take these people at their word, Powell didn't know, so he couldn't have been lying. This still isn't evidence, of course - we know full well there was contradictory evidence, and we know full well what the international consensus was.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 22:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
And I suppose that you missed where George W. Bush had dismissed this when Tenet told him? Bush had an unfortunate predilection to dismiss his officials if they contradicted what he fervently wished was true, Tenet probably did the rational thing and decided to preserve his job at the expense of principle.

(no subject)

Date: 31/3/11 22:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
And I suppose that you missed where George W. Bush had dismissed this when Tenet told him?

According to some guy, yeah.

Bush had an unfortunate predilection to dismiss his officials if they contradicted what he fervently wished was true, Tenet probably did the rational thing and decided to preserve his job at the expense of principle.

If only. Bush was, to our detriment, too willing to listen too often.

(no subject)

Date: 1/4/11 00:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
1) According to Tenet himself. If you hire a CIA director and he tells you the truth and you don't like that truth, that does not make it any less the truth. Like LBJ, Bush lied us into a senseless war.

2) What timeline are you *from*, exactly? In mine Bush fired people across the board for not being insufficiently brown-nosing of Bush. Not to mention he hired a horse-trader as director of FEMA because he *was* a sufficient brown-noser of Bush (not that whoever Obama has vetting his appointees is that much better, mind). Not to mention when he exposed a covert CIA agent for her husband showing his yellowcake claims were a lie. The most notorious incident, however, was when Bush fired generals for claiming his plans would not work and this after most of an Administration saying the US military could do no wrong.

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