[identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
In early 1994, I was walking through the Makiki neighborhood of Honolulu on my way to a weekend event at the high school where I taught. I was 24 and had been a teacher for all of half a school year. It was, to be honest, a hard transition having moved 6000 miles from home and having just lost my grandfather a month earlier, but I was growing to truly love my new home and my job.

So I was just about to cross one of the main roads, and I witnessed a group of boys -- about 11-12 years old or so -- taking turns running into the street, lying down and then getting up and running to the other side. They did this several times, even as cars were coming rumbling down the blind corner of the hill just to the mountain side of the neighborhood.

And I lit into them. Probably my first true moment of generational ranting and fueled by my own recent loss, I yelled at them for risking that, told them their parents would be crushed if they got hurt and what about a poor driver who'd have to live with hitting them if they kept up that nonsense? For good measure, I told them if they didn't leave right then and there, I'd get a cop and have them dragged home kicking and screaming. I'm not exactly a scary guy, but they left.

I found out later that there was either a popular TV show or movie that was out at the time that had people doing stupid stunts and that these kids were likely immitating it. Over the next years in the classroom, it was pretty evident that popular culture and discourse was pretty capable of working quite a lot of influence on people. Students of mine spent a disconcerting amount of time treating me to their renditions of Beavis and Butthead, and a generation of students who were familiar with the Ricki Lake Show and Jerry Springer betrayed signs of having become convinced that the person who shouts the loudest wins the argument. As a twenty-something college graduate, I was afflicted with the particular conceit that the media reflects rather than influences society, but my work teaching pushed the credulity of that.

I think it is obviously true that words and messages have impact. If they didn't American businesses would probably have better uses for the $125 billion (more or less) they spend on advertising. On a personal level, I am sure if words and images did not matter, I wouldn't find Progressive Insurance Company to be cute and perky despite my having no personal experience with the company beyond its advertising front:





Let me get a couple of points of bias aside before continuing:

First, I do think our political rhetoric has become poisoned in America. It is not that people were not fierce partisans in the past, and it is not that we have not had even WORSE political environments where hot words were actually matched with hot deeds (think of Bleeding Kansas and why that name actually applied as an example). However, in my lifetime, there has been a substantial upping of the ante in political rhetoric in the mainstream of commentary, activism and even political leaders that would have been pretty unthinkable except in the margins previously. Since my first year in college, Democrats have gone from being "soft on defense" and "tax and spend liberals" to "traitors" and "socialists". Republicans have gone from being "the party of the rich" to "fascists" who'd just as soon see the poor die.

I won't be so disengenuous to say that there isn't a stridency on the left of American politics. It is that stridency that prevented me, despite my strong opposition to the war in Iraq, from joining street protests and limited my activism to letter writing and door to door canvassing during the elections. It was because I did not want to stand next to this:



or this:



My arguments with the Bush administration were based upon his adherence to a Nixonian theory of Presidential power and his launching a war of choice against the wrong enemy -- not that he had seized all the levers of government in a dictatorship and launched a ruthless total war and genocide across an entire continent. Lacking a taste for hysteria and hyperbole, I worked a lot more quietly.

With that said, I do agree with people who claim the conservative wing of American politics has gone far and beyond in recent years. That's an impression and an opinion and there will be people who vigorously disagree with it -- and I'm fine with that. I stand by the observation because I simply have not seen an equivalent number of liberal media personalities with the same reach and audience as Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck and Malkin pursuing the rhetorical excess that typifies these people. Nor do I see an equivalent number of Democratic elected officials who imitate the voices of the most extreme commentators on the left. Further, there has been an even more extreme coarsening of the tone from hyperbolic claims (Obama is a Socialist!) and counterfactual assertions (Obamacare is going to kill my baby with Downs Syndrome!) to implications that we are near a point where "government tyranny" will require a violent response.

All of that said, I stand by my initial rant about the response to Congresswoman Giffords being shot...abundant use of the word "fuck" and all.

A great many on my side of the political aisle immediately saw a connection between the attemtped asssasination of a Democratic Congresswoman and the rhetoric of recent years, and quite a few of them jumped at the chance to exploit it as political fodder against conservative commentators, the Republican party in general and the Tea Party specifically. It only helped that opportunity that Giffords herself was challenged in her recent reelection by a Tea Party backed candidate who used shooting references in his campaign against her and that Giffords' district appeared in Sarah Palin's...."surveyor's mark" map from last summer.

It's an opportunity that never should have been taken.

This community has been treated to numerous posts warning of the dire consequences of rhetorical excess from the right of American politics and comparing several prominent conservatives to the likes of Julius Streicher and Joseph Goebbels who both served as leading "idea men" for the Nazi Reich and were considered responsible for the eventual deeds of the Reich.

That's a hell of a charge, and it bears some examination because if, as I opened with, words DO influence people and if words in our political discourse bear resemblance to those used by the most notorious propagandists of modern history, the consideration of whether or not it could happen here and whether or not certain actors in our politics are trying to make a version of it happen here has to be considered.

This is already a huge post, but I'd like to briefly explain why I think that oft flung charge is simply another partisan talking point that is attractive for confirmation bias purposes, but ultimately too simplistic. Julius Streicher may have been a publisher, but within short order of his joining the Nazi party, he was appointed Gauleiter of Nuremberg, the undisputed party head in his jurisdiction and "advisor" to the local government. Since the Nazi Party was organized with paramilitary forces, a Gauleiter had real authority and, more importantly, goons at his disposal with which he could unleash violence. Goebbels was deeply involved in the decision making that led to the Final Solution. So even if a cursory examination of the language used by Glenn Beck, for example, results in use of phrases and terms typical in Nazi propaganda, the men who used that propaganda took actions beyond publication that made them culpable for the atrocities of the Reich.

Another example we've been given repeatedly is that D.W. Griffith's A Birth of a Nation was instrumental in the founding of The Second Klan. I'll stipulate that historians widely cite the film as an inspiration for the new Klan and provided the romantic image of the original Klan used to recruit members. But honestly, that is too simple. Remember that America in 1915 was a country where white supremacism was not a fringe ideology -- it was mainstream enough that President Woodrow Wilson's explanation of the original Klan was featured in the film:



In the decades PRIOR to both the film and the reestablishment of the Klan, gangs of "witecappers" spread as secret societies among white farmers in rural Indiana and spread as a vigilante movement to enforce "proper" behavior. And when it spread to the South, it took on a decidedly racist tone attacking blacks and anyone supportive of blacks. So the Klan arose, not merely inspired by a film, but also into a society whose President romanticized Nathan Bedford Forrest and which already had a cell organized, vigilante movement that was spreading anti-immigrant and racist violence years before the Klan was founded again.

It seems obvious to me that mass violence is not simply "set off" by rhetoric, even by years of it. Even the Rwandan genocide which shocked the West with its sudden onset wasn't merely incited by the hate speech on the radio. Those broadcasts told Hutu listeners they were in immediate danger, were used to call up Hutu paramilitary groups sanctioned by the government, and gave specific names of Tutsis to be killed and where to find them. Further, the genocide played off of inter-ethnic hatreds stemming from decades of colonialism. Talk alone doesn't lead to mass violence in a vacuum.

Rush Limbaugh has been successful since the election of President Clinton. Ann Coulter published her first book in 1998. Glenn Beck has been preaching against progressives, declaring the President a socialist and misrepresenting the specifics of the health care bill for two solid years. And yet in spite of this, the most obviously heated period of our political struggles was in the summer of 2009 when 1000s of Tea Party Activists descended upon the health care town hall meetings and....shouted a lot. A lot of it wasn't factually correct. Quite a bit of what was documented was rude, even cruel to people disagreeing. You know what it wasn't? It wasn't a riot. Or a pogrom.

So if it isn't mass violence that we can pin on this kind of rhetoric and influence, surely we can blame it upon individual actors who are directly listening to it and believe it? I don't think so. Think about those 11 year old boys I described before the cut. Were they inspired by, maybe even got the idea to lie down in traffic from what they watched? Probably, yes. But a whole lot of other things were at play there as well. They were boys. And they were 11. By definition, that means they were pretty dumb and prone to taking idiotic risks. They were completely unsupervised at the time. Perhaps their parents were not especially good at teaching them prudent judgment.

The same set of complicated factors in decision making has to be applied to anyone who listens to and is potentially influenced by media that they consume. Another reason that the "You are responsible if people use your words as inspiration for violence" line of attack is unfair is that it ignores the vast vast majority of listeners who do not do so. When there are 10s of millions of prolife people in this country, but only a miniscule fraction of them have been violent, there is more than prolife rhetoric at work. Those events are shocking and they are searing, but the average clinic worker or patient at Planned Parenthood is infinitely more likely to be shouted at than shot. And that has to have something to do with how a micro fraction of listeners to polemics process that rather than an inherent danger in the polemic itself.

Now saying all of that, I think that the attempted assassination of Congresswoman Giffords and the deaths of others present at Tucson IS an excellent opportunity for all of us to take stock in the way we are discussing, or, rather, failing to discuss politics in this country.

This isn't because anyone on the right is responsible for what happened to Congresswoman Giffords, her staff, friends and constituents. They are not, and people on the left who have tried to rush into blaming them for it should apologize. The reasons for all of us to collectively reconsider our discourse are:

1) The way we are doing it today is making us stupid. Accusations. Epithets. Counter factual claims. Facts that aren't facts. They are flying across our partisan landscape with a speed and volume that only our modern disinformation age can manage. But far from "liberating" us, it has made many of us the gatekeepers of our own partisan bubbles where we refuse to let in information that does not conform to our existing biases.

I tried listening to "Air America" a few years back when Randi Rhodes was an anchor show. It was horrible -- I found myself embarrassed to be on the same side of political spectrum as she was, struggling to keep from yelling at my radio. I've watched a few of Keith Olbermann's patented "Special Commentaries" and found them satisfying in the sense I wasn't the one yelling...but I can't watch the show consistently or even sit through a whole episode.

This new media as a source of information is a lot like eating potato chips for lunch...it can fill you up and even seem satisfying, but it provides just about zero of what you need. Face it, if you get most of your information from partisan broadcasts and blogs, chances are that you are really fucking stupid.

2) We are only furthering the trend of failing to work together because we are all Americans despite of our differences, a principle that is core to the kind of Congresswoman Ms. Giffords is. I've followed her career since 2006 when she was profiled in a Jewish magazine, and I have a friend who covered her first campaign in 2006 and is a true admirer of hers. This lady is the real deal -- she's smart, she's patriotic, she's principled, she's an honest broker across party line and precisely the kind of public servant who will be disgusted when she sees how her tragedy has been used for crass partisan gain.

The fact is that there is serious work that our politicians are entrusted to do, but as we've willingly consumed greater and greater amounts of partisan vitriol, the bases of both parties insist on purity of ideology over accomplishment. Think about the Democratic base lashing out at Senator Lieberman for daring to support the Iraq War when the rest of his record was certainly reasonable from liberal perspectives. Think about Republican partisans demanding the head of Lindsey Graham for daring to not vote in lock step. The fact is that where the parties were once more ideologically diverse and cross party cooperation was essential to get anything done, today's parties are much more narrow and nomination requires the approval of ever more entrenched base voters who don't see the other side as opponents, they see them as enemies.

In 1983, such partisans as President Ronald Reagan and Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill came together and hammered out a plan to save Social Security. Look at this photo:



One cannot help but realize that the bases of both parties today would react with fury to two politicians being statesmen and working together, but that's what we need today.

Finally, and maybe most importantly -- We should look into ourselves and tone it down because the most touching and important reactions to what happened in Tucson should tell us that we are nation and that the people we oppose politically are our fellow citizens with lives, hopes, dreams and families, and that the arguments which energize us should not become the anger that divides us. Cut away the slop of "you are responsible!" and "how dare you say that!" and you get a truly bipartisan reaction of shock, sorrow and hope for the Congresswoman's recovery. I've never deferred to [livejournal.com profile] reality_hammer in this forum before, but his excellent first words on the events of last Saturday should have been a model.

And we ARE shocked and we ARE sad, but Representative Giffords is not a football in a political slugfest -- she is a decent human being, a wonderful public servant, and she is not unique in that respect. Our common bonds should be rooted in our desires for what is best for our nation, our communities, our families and ourselves, regardless of our disagreements about how to achieve that.

So...if you are outraged and sorrowful about Tucson, but your first thoughts were how to spin the story to your partisan advantage, you are doing it wrong. If you're are outraged and sorrowful about Tucson but would go out tomorrow and plan an election campaign as nasty as the one that exploited the fact that Giffords' husband would not vote for her....leaving out that he's an ASTRONAUT with children from another marriage who live near mission control in Houston...well, if you'd do that all over again to her or anyone else, you are doing it wrong too.

So yes, this is a moment for us to consider our political rhetoric -- but it is a moment for us to all reflect upon whether or not we are contributing to the best in America or simply relishing giving in to currents that prevent us from working together.

And as a final, I promise, thought -- if reading this gives you hope and puts a smile on your face, then I think you are part way there.

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Date: 14/1/11 20:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
I think it is obviously true that words and messages have impact. If they didn't American businesses would probably have better uses for the $125 billion (more or less) they spend on advertising.

But most of that impact is simply brand recognition, not brain washing or mind control. Advertising does not generally convince someone to buy a product, it informs someone that there is a product that meets their needs, even if it's a need they didn't know they had.

The rest of what you said is generally true, although I think that your statement of not seeing as much from the left recently is because you're not likely to be looking for it and because the media is hiding it while exposing the right fringe more. For example, did you know that Montel Williams directly said that Michelle Bachman should slit her wrists or even better her throat? I had never heard that before, and yet vague allusions that can be interpreted in multiple ways by Beck or Coulter are repeated on every news channel ad nauseum.

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Date: 14/1/11 22:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com
> But most of that impact is simply brand recognition
> not brain washing or mind control.

Just because something can - sometimes and subtly - effect behavior, doesn't mean that it is 'mind control' or 'brain washing.'

> there is a product that meets their needs, even if it's a need they
> didn't know they had

Heh heh... There aren't that many people who need to eat, but don't know it.

If someone doesn't know they need something, it probably means they don't actually need it. But they may learn to want it.

Your idea of the role of advertising is pretty much how advertisers themselves felt prior to the innovations in 'public relations' made by Edward Bernays (S. Freud's American Nephew) in the opening decades of the 20th century. Before that, it was as you say... make people aware of your product, and show them how your product will fulfill their needs and/or desires.

After Bernays, things become more sophisticated, at least at the top levels of business. Its about doing the above, as well as forming connections between the product and emotionally significant cultural archetypes with which people identify, such that purchasing your product allows the consumer to express their identity. The former is the overt message, which provides the substrate within which to encode the latter.

A positive way to spin that would be to say it provides another avenue to satisfy a consumer. A negative way to spin that is that it creates artificial needs in order that it can then fulfill those artificial needs.... and manufactured identity has a high profit margin, because the raw material is cheap as hell, and easy to ship.

Check out BBC's documentary The Century of the Self

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Date: 14/1/11 22:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com
"vague allusions that can be interpreted in multiple ways by Beck or Coulter"

Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

Glenn Beck: “Hang on, let me just tell you what I’m thinking. I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore (an award-winning political commentator and documentary movie producer), and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could.”

vague? allusions?

Also, Montel Williams is a pretty weak example compared to Limbaugh, Coulter, and Beck. But I finally found a list comparable wishes of death for political adversaries:

-- "Rush Limbaugh is beginning to look more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody's going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he's going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet, but we'll be there to watch." -- Chris Matthews on MSNBC's "Morning Meeting," Oct. 13, 2009.

-- "So, Michele, slit your wrist! Go ahead! I mean, you know, why not? I mean, if you want to -- or, you know, do us all a better thing. Move that knife up about 2 feet. I mean, start right at the collarbone." -- Montel Williams, talking about Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., on Air America's "Montel Across America," Sept. 2, 2009.

-- "He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion, Dick Cheney is, he is an enemy of the country. ... You know, Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don't even wish the guy goes to hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here." -- Ed Schultz, "The Ed Schultz Show," May 11, 2009.

-- "I'm waiting for the day when I pick it up, pick up a newspaper or click on the Internet and find out he's choked to death on his own throat fat or a great big wad of saliva or something, you know, whatever. Go away, Rush, you make me sick!" -- Radio host Mike Malloy on the Jan. 4, 2010, "Mike Malloy Show."

-- "I'm just saying if he (Dick Cheney) did die, other people, more people would live. That's a fact." -- Bill Maher, on his HBO show "Real Time," March 2, 2007.

-- After then-Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., said that the federal government was spending too much money on AIDS, National Public Radio's Nina Totenberg, on the July 8, 1995, edition of "Inside Washington,"
said, "I think he ought to be worried about what's going on in the Good Lord's mind because if there is retributive justice, he'll get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it."

-- On the Nov. 4, 1994 edition of PBS's "To the Contrary," then-USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk show host Julianne Malveaux said of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas: "I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease. ... He is an absolutely reprehensible person."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6215940/media_research_center_compiles_death.html?cat=62

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Date: 15/1/11 02:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
Advertising does not generally convince someone to buy a product

I can't agree. Advertising these days is as much an exercise in psychological manipulation as it is brand recognition. The current trend in advertising in the past 40 years is to convince the public that a want is actually a need - and they've generally been successful. Influencing and conditioning are all standard parts of advertising at this stage. Associations, appeal to emotions, appeal to sex drive, appeal to herd instinct, inflammation of insecurity, appeal to fear; all of these are used commonly in advertising and to great effect since a majority of people don't recognize this type of programming when they see it.

Some ideas that have been patented are really insidious. For instance, a couple of years ago Steve Jobs patented a particular advertising method where ads would appear on your Ipod. These ads would be non-skippable and if you did not pay sufficient attention to them (as determined by algorithms) all sound capability would be shut off until you did. That patent has now been extended towards every Apple product, though it is yet to be implemented.

I can recommend some books on the subject, if you're interested.

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Date: 14/1/11 20:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
An awesome post that I fully second.

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I guess I agree with most of this...

Date: 14/1/11 21:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
It is that stridency that prevented me, despite my strong opposition to the war in Iraq, from joining street protests

Millions around the world did protest the war. Wish you were there.


a ruthless total war

I'm certain those who didn't get instantly nuke'd could tell the difference, but I bet in Iraq, it seemed ruthless enough. Shock and awe didn't have tons of ruthfullness. If you need examples, I can supply them, unfortunately.

gave specific names of Tutsis to be killed and where to find them

Likewise, our media had a constant drumbeat to war (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3062) leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Saddam's grandkid would have been wise to flee then!

Are you so certain that the media onslaught of WARGASM didn't influence us more than Code Pink?


the kind of public servant who will be disgusted when she sees how her tragedy has been used for crass partisan gain.

That 30 round clip did its job. Wasn't there a law against that much ammo?

It is crass to point out this situation is another indicator that a.) we need more health care b.) we need less casual access to guns?
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Modern firepower is too lethal to go to war for trivial reasons and certainly not to go into one without plans and ideas of what victory looks like, two big mistakes the USA made in the case of the Third Gulf War. Where in World War II everybody backed guerrillas against the other side, massacres were not instances of breakdown of the rules but the rules themselves, and nobody turned an eye to casualty levels among the soldiers and civilians alike that no modern state would take for very long.

It's the difference between "bad" and "catastrophe."

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Date: 14/1/11 21:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com
excellent words. recommended this.

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Date: 14/1/11 21:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anadinboy.livejournal.com
advertising has always said its goal is not to draw attention to the product, nor to brainwash you into buying something you dont want, but to make you choose that product over its near rival. In that sense it has a lot of similarities with politics and ppl like edward bernays have a lot to answer to

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Date: 14/1/11 21:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Best fuckin post since the start of the year. And I think it applies universally, not just to the US realities. There's much our own politicians over here could take note on from this. It wasn't easy to read and assimilate but it's totally worth the effort.

Also a cup of chips is sometimes enough for a lunch, but I digress.

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Date: 14/1/11 23:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com
"So yes, this is a moment for us to consider our political rhetoric -- but it is a moment for us to all reflect upon whether or not we are contributing to the best in America or simply relishing giving in to currents that prevent us from working together."

So, like, the FCC has a history of fining people for what it terms "Obscenity, Indecency and Profanity." How does government decide what is obscene, indecent and profane? And how do they get around the first amendment exactly? I would think that jokingly or seriously wishing death on political adversaries qualifies as obscene, indecent and profane, as well as prevents us from working together and contributing to the best in America.

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/oip/

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Date: 15/1/11 10:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
Basically the FCC doesn't really use it. Obscenity laws are routinely ignored, because, as I understand it, it's extremely narrowly defined due in no small part to the Supreme Court giving the first amendment the broadest latitude possible of just about any of the rights in the Bill of Rights. (This is correct, in my opinion.)

You quite literally must be using speech in a deliberate attempt to maim or kill a fairly specific target, be it one person, or other named and identified targets, without any irony.

On a side note, I think once the attitude becomes one of 'how we can get around that 1st amendment', we've already lost the battle, because widening the use of obscenity laws can only come back to bite you in the ass anyway. It will be used as a hatchet by whatever party occupies the seat of power, and perhaps against the very ones who previously were enamored of the idea of broadening its scope.

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Date: 14/1/11 23:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Thankfully though, all talk about subliminal messaging is pseudo-scientific bunk.

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Date: 15/1/11 00:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com
A search for subliminal yields only this comment. It's almost as if malasadas didn't talk about subliminal messaging.

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Date: 15/1/11 01:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
If I was ever going to move "left" it would only be because I wouldn't mind being like you (heck I'd even consider converting to Judaism...not that big a stretch since I know an awesome Messianic congregation ;) )

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Date: 15/1/11 01:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
The Tucson tragedy will cause us all to reverently regret any name-calling and 'killing' rhetoric we may have done in the past. That regret will last until the news cycle takes a turn in another direction; then most of us will cheerfully return to calling opponents douchebag Nazis... and worse.

Sad. But true.

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Date: 15/1/11 02:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
This is a good post and you should feel good.

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Date: 15/1/11 03:23 (UTC)
weswilson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] weswilson
It's been really hard for me. I've tried to ensure I never drew any direct causal link between the right's rhetoric and the Arizona attack, but if you're not careful in how you do that, you end up carrying water for that reprehensible speech. Additionally, though I tried to communicate about it in a non-partisan manner, some of my more vocal right-wing friends kept drawing this false equivalency between left-wing and right-wing speech. I was really glad that Stewart's speech regarding it was available, because I failed at walking that line as well as he did.
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Date: 15/1/11 14:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 3fgburner.livejournal.com
An excellent post. It's just as well that I missed your earlier (also excellent) rant at the time, because I'd just have gotten into it with [livejournal.com profile] paft over the gun thing. I've watched a couple of TEA Party rallies, while waiting for the gun-rights rally I was there for, to start. I'd say that I agree with them, MAYBE, about 25-30%. Likewise, I'll agree with the far Left, about 25-30%.

I've found that there's some things that aren't debatable, with some people. Someone on the Guns board at Democratic Underground (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=118) coined the excellent phrase, "Factose intolerant".

For example -- most people whom I've met, that are anti-choice on abortion, hold that view due to religious feeling. My personal view is that "The Bible Says..." at the beginning of an argument about What Should Be Done About X, invalidates the argument.

Conversely, on gun control, [Insert disclaimer: Personal bias, and speaking from personal experience, here] pro-gun-rights people tend to argue from a left-brain perspective -- facts, figures, analysis, and anti-gun-rights people tend to argue from a right-brain view -- emotional and feeling-based arguments. Anti-gun types will sometimes use statistics in argument, but a lot of times those stats are based on "studies" that cherry-picked data to confirm the researcher's bias.

Continuing with guns as an example, because that's one of my issues: Most of the people who favor banning X are (a) those who've let a personal bad experience override logic -- I can sympathize, without agreeing with them; or (b) people who don't actually know much about the subject (can you say, "assault weapon", boys and girls? I knew you could.) and have been convinced by propaganda. Then there's the small, hard core of people who are deliberately lying about the issue, and know it, like Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center (http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm)*.

The point of getting into discussions with such people, is to convince the fence-sitters. In the case of guns, debating the hard-core antis, and watching them foam at the mouth, helps to convince the fence-sitters and group-b types.

By the way, it's a good thing [livejournal.com profile] paft lives on the Left Coast. She wouldn't want to be around Capitol Square in Richmond, on Monday. In among the several thousand activists coming to lobby the VA Legislature, will be several hundred gun-rights activists. A goodly percentage of us will be carrying, enough that we get our own entrance to bypass the metal detectors in the General Assembly Building. Texas recently adopted similar security procedures, and there was an immediate rush among lobbyists, even non-gun-owning ones, to get Concealed Handgun Permits. Come to the Capitol, show permit, skip the TSA-type crap.

(*) Sugarmann's best quote on the subject of "assault weapons", from the VPC's own website: The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weaponsï -- anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gunï -- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

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Date: 15/1/11 15:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
The only bans I'd support entirely would be things like military-grade weapons in the hands of civilians. They don't have the training to use them for one thing and are more likely to be endangering themselves than anyone else....

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From: [identity profile] 3fgburner.livejournal.com - Date: 15/1/11 16:24 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 16/1/11 22:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
You do/did door-to-door canvassing for elections? Neato.

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Date: 17/1/11 00:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paft.livejournal.com
M: t seems obvious to me that mass violence is not simply "set off" by rhetoric, even by years of it.

My premise has never been that violent political rhetoric was the sole cause of the holocaust, or of the rise of the Klan, that mass violence is simply "set off" by rhetoric. If that were the case, every obscure blog post or comment would result in riots.

My premise has been that violent political rhetoric becoming normalized from bully pulpits and prominent media personalities -- whether Goebbels, or Glenn Beck, or Father Coughlin -- can very well lead to actual political violence. My premise as been that violent political rhetoric that is countenanced and even used by influential and powerful people, is dangerous. And yes, the violent rhetoric endemic today on the right is being countenanced and used by influential and powerful people.

What amazes me is the number of times this very simple, measured premise is treated as if the readers or listeners had never, in their lives, ever heard of such a thing.

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Date: 18/1/11 20:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tcpip.livejournal.com
What a rambling, nonsensical, low-quality post. In terms of actual content to word count it's the sort of the thing that a speed-addicted first semester freshman would come up with.

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