mahnmut: (The Swallows have won!)
[personal profile] mahnmut posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
I understand many believe there's a new cultural shift sweeping across the US (and UK, by extension), where these two societies are finally now facing their past in an honest way, ready to acknowledge slavery, racism, and the other ills related to social marginalization of entire segments of society, in an attempt to heal and cleanse themselves, and move on after this catharsis.

I'm sorry to rain on this party, but I'd say it's a bit too late for the US to confront its past. It should have been done so in the 20 years after the Civil War, or during the 60s when segregation was repealed.

Problem is, there are just too many Americans at this point who believe there is no racism and that blacks, Latinos, Muslims, and Indians are mostly dumb, lazy, violent, or immoral, with some exceptions that they call the "good ones". That is, they believe that their racism is justified by their stereotypes of the people they denigrate. They've elected an asshole for president whose entire worldview revolves around these notions - while he didn't win the popular vote, it was pretty close anyway, which indicates that his worldview is not exactly fringe. That, in 21st century America. He may or may not be defeated in the upcoming election - but the problem won't go away with him.

So, what exactly about the past needs to be confronted? It has already been proven and established - but so what? Certainly that is Trump's view of the world, Kanye West is one of the "good ones" but the rest are, well... You get the idea. And it's not just a few rotten apples who share this worldview, and whose political decisions are entirely educated by it.

The thing is, there are plenty people who believe the whole racial emancipation process has been done the wrong way. They're convinced the US has done more than enough already, having faced its history long ago, and lavishly compensated the victims thereof. They go even further and assert that black privilege has now grown to ludicrous levels: preferential college admissions and scholarships, preferential hiring by most corporations, and set-aside government contracts for black-owned businesses. Affirmative action gone wild, so to speak. Not even including the extensive government support for what they call the "grievance industry", through awareness and training sessions. And what they perceive as a systematic encouragement of the "outrage industry" being done both through the mass media and social networks. They're convinced that a whole segment of society has now grown accustomed to being entitled to benefits and attitudes they haven't earned, or deserved, but which they now take for granted and demand to keep receiving, based on a past long gone.

Now, myself living in South Africa, a country that knows a thing or two about racial revolution, I'm fully aware that every push for change has its detractors, especially those potentially affected by said change - every revolution inevitably meets with a reactionary push-back. Question is, where's the balance, where's the peace? And, should it even be sought in the first place? Shouldn't everything be first dismantled and destroyed before being built anew, instead? Where's the Nelson Mandela who'd know how to prevent this society from consuming itself? And, is it even possible to heal this society at this point? Would it be able to heal at all, if the more extreme course of action is taken?

Something tells me it isn't, and won't. The divisions have grown only deeper. A tipping point may or may not have been reached, but even if it still hasn't been, the direction these processes are taking, and the rate at which they've been going, give me no reason to believe the trend could be reversed. Each side has dug deeper into its trenches, demonizing the other one to a point where the "enemy" is no longer considered human. Bipartisanship is all but dead. There are two Americas fighting a Cold Civil War with each other along many division lines, including economic, social, cultural, and racial. I'd say America has had plenty of chance to look in the mirror, and heal itself. It has failed. Now it's doomed to follow the fate of every other empire in the history of this planet. Namely, go down in ruins under the weight of its own incurable internal illnesses. And I shudder to think what would emerge from the ashes. Sorry. I hope I'm wrong. I hope you somehow convince me that I am. But I'm not holding my breath about it.

(no subject)

Date: 18/6/20 17:52 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (politics: Black Lives Matter)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
I don't think you're wrong. I would love to see my country pull its collective head out of its ass, but what you said is spot on: not only do people think by and large there isn't a racism problem, but they think there is such a thing as black privilege while black people are getting murdered by the police constantly.

It's very, very sad. And the possibility of what indeed might emerge from the ashes is terrifying.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 16:27 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jazzyjj
Very well said. And, this seems to be the view held by a lot of people in my neck of the woods too, including my immediate family.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 16:37 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (cats: shoulder cat)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
(Re my original reply: Sorry, I replied to the wrong thread on the same topic!)

I have serious concerns about what we're going to see 4-5 years from now. I want to keep hope alive, but.
Edited Date: 19/6/20 16:40 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 00:16 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
Problem is, there are just too many Americans at this point who believe there is no racism and that blacks, Latinos, Muslims, and Indians are mostly dumb, lazy, violent, or immoral, with some exceptions that they call the "good ones". That is, they believe that their racism is justified by their stereotypes of the people they denigrate.

demonizing the other one to a point where the "enemy" is no longer considered human. Bipartisanship is all but dead.

I agree with point 2, but you can't have it both ways. You can't scream racist at anyone who disagrees with anything the truly righteous side believes, AND complain that they dont wanna come to the table and sing kumbaya with you.


(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 03:30 (UTC)
asthfghl: (Слушам и не вярвам на очите си!)
From: [personal profile] asthfghl
Move further to the right, to accommodate the new tilt of the spectrum? Sneaky. Me likey.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 10:37 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
Not assuming everyone that opposes you is a racist isnt moving to the right.

People that arent racist will eventually resent being told they are irredemeably so.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 16:07 (UTC)
asthfghl: (А бе къде е батко?)
From: [personal profile] asthfghl
But... Are they sure they aren't racist?

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 18:43 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
Everyone labeled a racist is not racist. While racism still exists, and likely always will - we have greatly improved. Please consider the wild possibility that the media and social media are exaggerating this problem.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 03:59 (UTC)
absurdhero: (Cup of Kronos)
From: [personal profile] absurdhero
I think we're done attempting bipartisanship with the Republican party as it exists today, so it's probably moot. Bipartisanship was already dead during the Obama era when House Republicans voted to end Obamacare more than 70 times, Mitch McConnell famously rubber-stamped a big NO on every Democratic initiative, and they stole a Supreme Court seat. We definitely don't have a chance to revive it in the Trump era, when the Republicans have fully emerged as willing toadies and sycophants to a demagogue and have gleefully aided and abetted his repeated abuses of power.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 04:18 (UTC)
absurdhero: (Mousetrap)
From: [personal profile] absurdhero
As an American I have to agree with this assessment entirely. I'm not sure how long the collapse will take - I think if Biden wins in November it will delay things somewhat, but the foundation of this nation is still severely cracked. If it's not fully dealt with, we'll simply have it collapse under our feet some years down the line.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 06:38 (UTC)
fridi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fridi
America has a much bigger problem than prejudice, although the two are related. It's social stratification, and the concentration of wealth. Revolutions tend to happen because of these things, and I do mean violent, destructive revolutions with unpredictable outcomes.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 06:54 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
Some of us on the ground in these places are trying to do something about it all. Iconoclasm is all very well, but this situation needs deeper change.

In the UK racism has been systemic and systematic forever. Yes, we went to war to end the Atlantic slave trade, and yes we were (and are) less racist than some folk, but even so.

Even our knightly orders are tainted with racism. The emblem of the Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George (KCMG - known familiarly as "Kindly Call Me God" is this:



A White St Michael trampling a Black Satan.

It runs pretty deep. There needs a lot of soul searching and there needs to be change.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 11:13 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (reactions: scream)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
Oh my god I never knew that was a thing (the racist depiction on the knight emblem) over on y'all side of the pond. *horrified screaming*

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 13:15 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
It just went unnoticed and unremarked.

We have been around as a polity for some thousand years. We have a portfolio of this sort of stuff embedded deep. And we have folk like Wilberforce and Wedgwood too.

We have a lot of history and lots of it hasn't been reappraised. That bit in "Thor: Ragnarok" where Hela reveals what Asgard was built on... that's us, that is.

And so are the good bits, too. But all of this is over now for both you and us. We have, through our respective democratic choices, rendered ourselves the laughing-stocks of the world. It's not just institutional racism folk have to complain about ATM; it is also massively grotesque incompetence and even worse corruption.

And the US press are looking at the UK aghast, and providing the UK with the only good analysis of our situation as distraction from their own problems; and the UK are reciprocating because we need a distraction from our mess.

I wonder if Bannon's troops have shot their bolt too soon. I don't think they had enough folk in place to stop BLM properly in their tracks. One policeman being a bit overenthusiastic before Der Tag may have put a spanner in Bannon's works. I hope so.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 13:22 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (politics: Black Lives Matter)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
Yes, the incompetence and corruption pour gasoline on the trash fire in our respective countries. It's very sad.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 13:37 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
I find it difficult to articulate both my rage and the deep shame of my country's predicament.

I am a Londoner, an Englishman, a British Subject, and a European - and I'm a member of the Anglosphere; and I never thought I'd be ashamed of being English or British. And weirdly, though I rant against racism lots, the thing that really shames me most at the moment is that we are tolerating the gross incompetence and manifest corruption of our present administration.

Boris and the Tories are still running ahead of the opposition in the polls. A collaborative fourth estate has helped, obviously.

There is, no doubt, a scale of collective insanity. The election of Boris and Donald is indicative of the fact that both our polities are Totally Fucking Barking, if you will excuse the tmesis. The Black Lives Matter people are some of the sane folk.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 13:43 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (politics: Black Lives Matter)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
I grew up with my mother telling me about her mother, an immigrant, and her firm belief in the American Dream and how proud they were of this country. My grandfather was decorated in the second World War, serving in the United States Navy. And I find myself apologizing for being American and being deeply ashamed of it even moreso than I was during the Bush administration (W, not his dad). I also rant against racism but we have so much incompetence and corruption here as well - Trump's handling of coronavirus as a prime example.

Boris and Donald's elections should have never happened, and they did, and even though there is a public outcry against Trump I wonder if it's going to be enough to defeat him, because of that collective insanity. It's not just the racism, it's the unwillingness to take a critical eye to everything else we're also tolerating along with it.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 07:38 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mikeyxw
"And, is it even possible to heal this society at this point?"

I think this is really the key point. It's easy to be pessimistic right now when we've got a lot of people pulling the country apart, including the guy in the White House. Some of this comes from the left, but mostly the radical left that still hasn't really captured the democratic party. Just look at their candidate, he's one of those guys who represents the time when Democrats were thought of as Republican-lite. The GOP on the other hand has fully embraced someone who is unfit for the office and Mitt Romney, the former establishment candidate, has been breaking with the party on major issues.

I think the country can be healed, it's been through worse before. What I think it'll take is a couple of things. The end of identity politics from the left and a huge loss by the GOP this November. Mr. Trump is polling worse than I've ever seen a sitting president do, he's got Mondale numbers. If these hold up, I don't see the GOP holding either house or the presidency. They have 20 senators running for reelection and three retiring while the democrats have 11 running for reelection and one retiring. The numbers are heavily in favor of the democrat's favor. Not only does the GOP deserve this, I think it'll actually do them and the country some good long term.

Of course the problem of social stratification, as fridi pointed out, will still be there. However this is something that most of the world is still working out. Bringing it to the surface is the first step and the US has done this in ways I haven't seen done in China or Russia (although I admit I'm not as familiar with Russia as the other two, so maybe I missed something).

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 13:34 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (koosh)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
The end of identity politics from the left

I am respectfully, politely inquiring what you mean by this.

I am on the left, and I have issues with "kids these days" and certain facets of what I myself would describe as identity politics (I am a cranky old geezer), however I've also seen/heard "identity politics" used as a dog whistle to suggest LGBT people have some sort of privilege and we should go back to being second-class citizens. Notice that I'm not saying this is what you mean, I'm not putting words in your mouth, and I'll reiterate my first point that even I look at some stuff happening on the left like "huh?"

Mainly I'm asking because if you have thoughts / suggestions on how our side can help defeat Agent Orange, I'm listening 😁

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 14:56 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mikeyxw
Nobody should go back to being second class citizens. I firmly support gay marriage and did so even before the Democratic party officially did. I also see the necessity of the BLM movement.

I do see a problem when someone's identity takes precedence over everything else. For example, I see the core problem of police brutality. Obviously black people suffer this at a higher rate and there is a lot of history behind this, but that isn't the end of the story. White men make up about half of the people killed by police, black men about one quarter. While BLM has done a great job of mobilizing people against police brutality and unaccountability, it has completely, by design, sidelined the group that is numerically impacted the most. When you really look at the subset of those who are impacted, poorer white communities, these are the ones most sidelined because they don't show up in the stack rank of oppressed as it's currently understood. This is an unnecessary division that makes enemies out of groups that have common interests. I'm not saying BLM should stop what they're doing or even that there shouldn't be a movement based on the black experience, but that the very real issue of police killing too many black people is a sub issue of the police killing too many people, not the other way around.

As far as defeating Trump, the Democrats have actually picked a candidate that most people like and hopefully he'll show up in places like Wisconsin and Michigan before the last week of the campaign. If this happens, I expect it should be easy... but then I expected Trump to lose last time, so what do I know.
Edited Date: 19/6/20 14:57 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 15:07 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (Trump brain)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
Thank you for your response.

You raise an interesting point; I mentioned in a comment on this comm before that I'm basically a redneck and, apart from being queer, pretty much the kind of person the Republican party has been trying to court to support Trump. And I see a lot of my fellow rednecks vote against their best self-interests because of divisiveness and the playing down of the problems poor whites have. Black people definitely suffer at a higher rate and there is history behind this as you pointed out, but I think the left's current rhetoric that if you're white you have no problems (and all the elitism I see from liberals directed at people in flyover states, jokes about how we're all inbred, etc) is alienating a lot of people who could be mobilized in the fight against Trump. I support Black Lives Matter but I feel that the police system in the US is corrupt as a whole.

I sure hope defeating Trump is easy, but I didn't expect him to win 2016 either. Sigh.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 16:40 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (Trump brain)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
As an addendum to my comment: to be fair I'm not saying everyone on the left dismisses poor white people in rural areas, but a lot of them do and in my observation it contributed to why Trump won 2016. It's not really that all poor white folks in red states are racist (yes, a lot of us are, but a lot of us aren't, or we're trying not to be), but we all get painted with the same brush and it's not helping. And the Republican party knows it's not helping, so they play on it because if poor whites came together with black folks and other people of color, the Republicans would never win again in this country. Divide and conquer, pretty much.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 17:04 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mikeyxw
If poor whites came together with poor blacks and other POCs, I think they could do better than either the democrats or republicans. The democrats might be a bit better, but some of their policies, such as trade and immigration, aren't aimed at helping the working class. Some of the other major things promised by the left that took center stage, such as student debt forgiveness and free college would benefit those who went to or will go to college, which is really the middle class and higher. Their proposals to raise worker's wages are mostly about strengthening unions, which might have worked for the 1920 election but these days wouldn't be relevant for anyone who doesn't work for the government.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 17:08 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (*productivity)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
Yup, my family got screwed hard by NAFTA during the Clinton administration and they haven't forgotten it. The left has lost touch with its working class roots.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 17:22 (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mikeyxw
"The left has lost touch with its working class roots."

This. I remember seeing Mrs. Clinton going to a small town in West Virginia and bragging about how her policies would shut down the local coal mines. She thought that promising green revolution jobs would make up for this. I'm not sure if she ever figured out that one of the biggest concerns of the people she was talking to is that the coal mine would shut down and eliminate most of the jobs in the area. And while her audience might have heard something about green revolution jobs on TV, they probably didn't know anyone who ever had one... as opposed to the people they knew who lost their jobs when coal mines shut down.

I'm still not convinced these folks are voting against their interests by supporting the GOP yet the Democrats seem to take this as a given.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 17:26 (UTC)
ex_flameandsong751: An androgynous-looking guy: short grey hair under rainbow cat ears hat, wearing silver Magen David and black t-shirt, making a peace sign, background rainbow bokeh. (reactions: THIS IS FINE)
From: [personal profile] ex_flameandsong751
Yup. I'm all in favor of green energy but it's not fair to shut the local coal mines without giving the workers replacement jobs / training, something to replace those jobs ASAP (and make the transition less scary, someone who's been working somewhere for years and years isn't exactly gonna be too keen on being pushed into something new) instead of just empty promises. That and many other similar situations are why these folks voted Trump in 2016.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 14:44 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
And now for more of the same:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/19/houses-of-parliament-art-has-a-lot-of-racist-history-says-its-curator

But the one chink of light in the darkness is that we are at least looking at all of this stuff now.

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 17:10 (UTC)
garote: (romance 3 kingdoms)
From: [personal profile] garote
America has had a very public battle with its demons of slavery and racism since forever. "Public" in two senses:

First, there is a constant supply of Americans who believe that the status quo isn't adequate, including plenty of Americans who are actually subconsciously racist and still believe in changing the status quo, all of whom are struggling to find ways to improve the situation and can be very vocal about it.

And second, "public" in the sense of a free press, and journalism that calls attention to conflict has always been especially popular. Compare this to places like China, where the government has a long and ongoing history, up the present minute, of abducting entire ethnicities it doesn't like to go live in forced labor camps, and the "press" is simply forbidden to talk about it, and in fact government censors work to prevent the public from discussing it privately as well.

I assume I don't have to tell you, that a loud and public battle is a lot more progressive than a timid, secret one. There are other affluent places in the world whose citizens are collectively shockingly racist, but simply aren't being challenged by the presence of enough different people to confront it.

America has come a good distance since it was nearly torn apart by an internal war that confused economic interests and human rights. There was a time when bands of white people used to roam the countryside plundering and murdering their white neighbors for not being racist enough. Now that segment is reduced to ghostly online rants in ugly corners of the internet - possibly abetted by foreign agitators - and morons insinuating themselves into protests to turn them violent (a tactic that people in this forum last week were vehemently arguing to be total fiction, an imaginary bugaboo of a paranoid left. Pick one.)

As we all know, it isn't adequate to end a policy or a tradition of racism and declare the battle won. We all need to replace it with something stronger. Real social bonds, real examples of good will and solidarity, everyday exposure. Fewer people willing to listen to monsters on AM radio spreading weird theories about a "grievance industry". You, personally, really can contribute to that. Meantime, I don't think it's wise to declare that the battle is irredeemably lost.

I know what my father would reply if I came to him and said, "Sorry, but the way things are these days, it's just too hard." He'd tell me the story about how he was playing in a high school basketball game, and one of his black friends fouled a white player from the other school, and how he got into a big fight after the game with a group of white boys who were intent on beating up or even murdering his friend. Then he'd look at me and say, "Too hard huh? There isn't a scratch on you. Are you sure you're even involved?"
Edited Date: 19/6/20 17:36 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 19/6/20 20:40 (UTC)
kiaa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kiaa
Gotta agree here. What did the Occupy Wall Street achieve? What did the Me Too movement achieve? They all yelled for a while, then went back home, and nothing has changed.

Credits & Style Info

Talk Politics.

A place to discuss politics without egomaniacal mods


MONTHLY TOPIC:

Failed States

DAILY QUOTE:
"Someone's selling Greenland now?" (asthfghl)
"Yes get your bids in quick!" (oportet)
"Let me get my Bid Coins and I'll be there in a minute." (asthfghl)

June 2025

M T W T F S S
       1
2 34 5 678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30      
OSZAR »