arhalvaztrirjournal: (Default)
[personal profile] arhalvaztrirjournal posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
I mean now the USA will finally be overtly intervening with what will either spark a civil war (because to be crudely frank Maduro, like Chavez, has an army and the other guy doesn't and dictators always like shooting first knowing that as long as they say 'death to the Great Satan/American imperialism' a good portion of the US and global media will defend the shot up corpses as the price of progress and an inevitable good thing) or at least a massacre in an oil-rich state that isn't a mostly Muslim one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46980913

To be equally fair, I've never understood the immense gulf in the global left's view of Hugo Chavez versus Nicolas Maduro. Ideologically Maduro is far the better choice for the Left, he's a genuine proletarian, and much more ideologically consistent. All Chavez proves is that anyone who defends him and hates Pinochet only hates a military coup not given the appropriate magic words, not a generals' putsch on principle.

In particular articles like this are the purest quality of horseshit, written to obfuscate that Chavez played as fast and loose with banning opposition as Maduro's done, and that both of them created a petrostate one-trick pony of an economy that has the same problem all the others do.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/05/maduro-chavez-170513145531916.html


To be fair some media coverage grudgingly recognizes a general who tried the same stunt Pinochet did wasn't a guy who created an 'economic miracle' but instead your average garden variety Santa Anna/Juan Peron wannabe who had a good PR firm that enabled the global Left to suddenly rally behind a military despot of the kind they otherwise usually savor their biggest volleys for whenever they're not focused monomaniacally on the USA.

http://theconversation.com/how-todays-crisis-in-venezuela-was-created-by-hugo-chavezs-revolutionary-plan-6147

Essentially, I think that Maduro's gotten a bum rap, and that on the basis of the sterling successes of prior US intervention that he may have actually achieved a miracle of his own because at the rate the USA's Reverse Midas Touch factor applies, odds are just as well he ends up making the entire northern part of South America his bitch, routing a pro-US coup by simple 1989 China methods, and becoming a more successful Fidel Castro with an oilfield. He's no better and no worse than Chavez, it's just that when Chavez died the myth that Venezuela was anything but a corrupt despotic petrodictatorship fell with him and his successor was never able to recreate it save in the eyes of the people making martyrs out of people like the House of Kim.

This is also the first time in a while that the USA has openly endorsed interference in Venezuelan politics, which is especially ironic given all the hullabaloo about Russian intervention. I think the real crime Putin did in the eyes of Americans was reminding us that we're not that different in the right hands from what we've done to other countries, and are no more immune to it than they are. When the USA does this to other countries, it's the god-given right of an empire to fuck with the sovereignty and electoral processes of other states, while God help the person who dares to treat the USA thus!

Naturally too I expect literally no major US media outlets will ever notice this bit of dissonance at any point in the whole mess here, and will take for granted that when the Colossus of the North clenches its Infinity Gauntlet that it is thus perfectly fulfilling its balanced geopolitical role, and not a case of imperialist hypocrisy to Biblical proportions.

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 24/1/19 13:04 (UTC)
fridi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fridi
And then you say you're not trolling.

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 24/1/19 22:49 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
Damn - I knew that last line was a little too over the top...

You got me - kind of.

It was trolling, in the sense that - of course I don't really believe that. I think (just to be safe) I'm in agreement with most of you now - I just want to know why.

Leading up to yesterday, I assumed most of you were against US intervention.

Around a dozen or so of you corrected my mistake. While yes, most of you are indeed against US intervention - there was a 'if you help fuck it up you gotta help fix it' exemption.

That makes sense, that seems reasonable enough.

Sorry if I keep missing the fine print - but now it seems there is an exemption to the exemption. Just curious as to how that works.







Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 24/1/19 23:16 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
You advised me to be more respectful - so I didn't go with the 'BUT I THOUGHT ALL YOU GUYS SAID YESTERDAY...' approach.

I trimmed back the sarcasm, bigly - and I put my comment to another comment to try and avoid making the post about my comment instead of about the post itself.

I did all I could, short of dropping it completely (which wouldn't make much sense, considering this is talk politics).

Anyone I had a back and forth with yesterday had to see this coming. Surely you didn't think we just wouldn't ever meddle again, although I admit - same day/next day - what are the chances? And it just so happened to be a country that I'm pretty sure most of you agree (there I go again) can place some of the blame for it's current situation on the US.

Is it unreasonable to ask what the difference is?

(no subject)

Date: 24/1/19 23:48 (UTC)
oportet: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oportet
Ok - I'll rephrase - no assumptions, no mention of past discussions, fresh start -

Why should we help Syria, but not Venezuela?

They both have oil, we've put sanctions on both, both have a leader that we don't like, that we've tried to overthrow (meddled), that doesn't like us, that's killed/attempted to kill his own people, people that need our help. At least with the Kurds we armed and trained them - in Venezuela, it's rocks and bottles vs. guns.



(reply from suspended user)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 24/1/19 23:25 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
Dude, don't let it bother you. I seem to be, as a general position, agin just about everyone else, excepting when I agree with them, of course.

I'm definitely of the "don't touch it don't touch, please don't touch it; oh shit now it's broken we have to pay for it" school of parenting. :)
(reply from suspended user)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 07:49 (UTC)
kiaa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kiaa
Here we go again. Why do some people always keep blabbering about Those People Who Disagree With Me as if they're a single person!? "Them". Who is them? You speak as if you've experienced encounters of the third kind with a hive-mind alien monster.
(reply from suspended user)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 23:47 (UTC)
garote: (Default)
From: [personal profile] garote
I do believe that place is here, and the time is now :D
(reply from suspended user)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 11:23 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
Well that's me all over. I'd never treat folk's opinions as individual's; obviously they are a collective aligned against me, and all other lone fighters for my particular brand of political solipsism.

I mean it's not as if we have agency over our opinions or anything - well, those we hold outside of our basement dwellings and reveal to the light.
Edited Date: 25/1/19 11:29 (UTC)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 11:33 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
PS, if you parse my original comment you will find that is allows me the agency to oppose everyone else, rather than assuming everyone else is conspired against me. It's a slight leap.

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 18:29 (UTC)
johnny9fingers: (Default)
From: [personal profile] johnny9fingers
Because I'm an old romantic.



Oops, didn't embed.

https://youtu.be/_4NkkAQllfo
Edited Date: 25/1/19 18:31 (UTC)

Re: (puts on helmet)

Date: 25/1/19 07:26 (UTC)
fridi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fridi
After 100 comments, you still understood nothing.

I'm not FOR intervention. But once you've intervened and caused a mess, I'm of the opinion that you should stay, change approach*, and try to help fix that mess. And THEN leave, and never come back. That clearer now? Because if it isn't, I really, REALLY don't know how much more clearer to spell it out.

And stop with these "most of you". I'm an autonomous person. Otherwise I'll consider you a troll and I'll ignore you in the future.


* translation: stop paying extremists to shoot at towns, start paying construction companies to rebuild towns. Local companies, if possible.
Edited Date: 25/1/19 07:55 (UTC)

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