[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

Greetings, ma'fellow popcorn-munching scandal-consumers smart, reasonable, decent folks! Drat... this guy is everywhere! He has even somehow managed to populate my TV box - although I'm sitting here in the backward Balkans, thousands of miles away from the ridiculous circus that you guys call "US presidential primaries". As shocking as that may seem, Donald Trump is obviously hell-bent on becoming US president. For our American brethren, that may not sound so weird, but for many Europeans, frankly, it's unthinkable. A person without any political experience who's running for the highest post in the land, is boasting publicly about his wealth, and making fun of the painful experience of a war veteran - you may imagine how bewildered the Euros are about all this.

Just to put this into perspective, the most scandalous and ill-mouthed political person at the European political scene for the last few years has been some obscure finance minister who until recently was mostly famous for his leather jacket and his motorbike (yes, I'm speaking of Varoufakis). Even he was considered something unacceptable by the political elites at this side of the Pond, while Trump is currently heading the polls in the GOP primaries even after having spewed a shitload of crap. You can already hear a big "WTF" coming from Europe, can't you?

It's evident that us Euros and Americans perceive the qualities of their politicians quite differently. Trump is coming from the ranks of big business and passes for someone who has the "guts" to speak his mind (however stupid it may be) - he's a colorful, unusual, unconventional candidate - while Europeans prefer the more composed, calmer, more refined type of politicians.

As colorful a character as he may be, in Europe Trump is mostly known for his TV show, where he enjoys the privilege of being able to hire and fire people at will. When he made his announcement that he was running for president, people saw him descending upon the unwashed masses on his private elevator in his private skyscraper on the 5th Av. in New York. Yeah, we all saw that. It was yet another proof that he's an arrogant, self-centered asshole who perceives himself as a media darling - so he didn't spare his audience his spicy rhetoric this time, either. He has said he owns a Gucci boutique that costs more than Mitt Romney's entire wealth. But that was only the beginning. His shenanigans on Mexican immigration were by far more scandalous. ("They're rapists ... and I suppose there are some good people among them"). Thing is, the media does love people like him, because scandal sells. Big time. And Trump is a gold mine in that respect.

Granted, the media covers politics in a different way in America compared to Europe. There are two clearly defined camps in the US, so people with leftist or conservative convictions can just choose the info channel that suits their worldview better. A figure like Trump is enjoying so much success because he's a polarizing factor that the media love to either worship or hate. The European media, in contrast, largely share the same values and views, which is why their attitude to the likes of this clown is quite the same: very negative. And their audience, respectively, is shocked, shocked!, I tell you!, at the sight of someone who can afford to speak such grotesque monstrosities, and pass as a serious political figure in the meantime. It just doesn't compute. It grinds on our sensitive Euro ears.

In Europe, being politically inexperienced is much more unacceptable than it is in the US, where in certain circumstances that could even be an asset. Americans do love people who are not part of the establishment, which is why so many of them view Trump as a maverick, especially when comparing him to the likes of Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush.

In other words, the "unpolitical politician" is a phenomenon that's almost unfamiliar in Europe. There *are* some populists like Le Pen and Tsipras, who get a lot of attention as persons, but their political programs tend to be viewed with suspicion. With Trump, things are looking rather differently.

The only politician who tried to behave somewhat similar to Trump's pattern in Europe that comes to mind is one Peer Steinbrueck, a Social-Democrat candidate in Germany who back in 2013 used a sharp tongue during an interview for a big German magazine. He even dared to flip the bird at the camera. That didn't go well with the public at all, who considered it too vulgar and immature. So, Steinbrueck was crushed at the election. We shall see how far this sort of behavior brings Trump in the race to the presidency.

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 20:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Err, have you been paying attention to the news the last 6 years or so?

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 21:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Fine. (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1997647.html?thread=149921103#t149921103)

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 04:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Are you suggesting that because there ally's we haven't gotten around to alienating that the point is invalid?

You don't think that our relationships have been improved do you?

While you do have a point, about failed policies. Bush should have taken a harder line against Russia when he had the chance, but he was a lame duck and obviously a bit gun-shy. That said I don't see how you can blame Libya Egypt or Syria (or what happened in Iraq after he left office) on Bush. Those are the current administration's babies.

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 08:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
You shifted the goal posts from "alienating allies" to "alienating ALL allies" I shifted them back by noting that even alienating some allies would make the initial statement true.

I asked if you think the situation has improved because I recently had a rather surreal discussion with someone who believed exactly that.

They felt that anything that curbed the US's "imperialist tenancies" was a boon for humanity as a whole in the long run even if it lead to signifigant violence and upheaval in the short term.

You have said before that the world doesn't need a world cop, especially not one like the US, as such I figured you might sympathize with the above view.

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 10:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
a divorce from Bush's practice of considering anybody who doesn't agree with him a potential enemy, IS an improvement in that respect, yes.

Not if we are talking about existing allies no. They are seperate issues, those that were against us will remain against us, those that were with us will have to wait and see. But I wouldn't be holding out for a happy result if I were you.

I'd appreciate if you do not make assumptions about my sympathies and views, because that is a strawman - a tactic which you have been warned against multiple times.

Note that I actually made the point to ask for clarification this time around which is more respect than you've given me in the other thread.

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 21:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
That's not a joke, this is a joke...

Our current president was the most "presidential" candidate to ever tun for president. So presidential in fact, that he was awarded a Nobel Prize for presidentialness. Under his stewardship the US government has set new standards for efficiency and transparency, while overseas we have seen unprecedented prosperity stability and cultural understanding.

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 21:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
But which allies has he alienated, and in which areas has he done even worse than his predecessor on the international front?

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 21:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Off the top of my head...

In regards to allies, Israel and the Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to a greater extent, UK and Eastern/Central Europe to a lesser extent.

In regards to the international front, Libya Egypt, and Syria were complete shit-shows. The situation in Iraq and and Afghanistan has deteriorated severely under his watch. He (along with many on this forum) poo-pooed idea that Putin might use his leverage on Europe's oil supply to rebuild "the eastern bloc" Romney was called a racist xenophobe trapped in the cold war for even suggesting the possibility. Yet now we have Neo-soviets in Ukraine backed by the Russian army and Poland Is looking to arm up and ally with Germany.

And that's before we consider the mess on the home front. Civil unrest, Security breaches, a politicized DoJ, and cabinet officials conducting national business on private mediums/venues to avoid congressional oversight.

Throw in a few drone strikes for flavor...

Aside from looking presidential is there an area in which he's done better?
Edited Date: 29/7/15 21:32 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/15 21:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
But, but, he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia! ;)

UK, Eastern and Central Europe? How has he alienated them? Did he put someone in the coalition of the unwilling or in the axis of evil that I hadn't heard of?

What could any US president have done to prevent Russia from wanting to become a new empire?

What's so bad about Poland teaming up with Germany?

I didn't ask about the home front.

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 04:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Backing out of NATO commitments along the US's with general non-response to Russian expansionism has left the alliance "strained", throw in some trade agreement drama and Id say our that relationship with our european allies (unless you count Russia as an ally) have been badly damaged to say the least.

What could any US president have done to prevent Russia from wanting to become a new empire?

In the simplest terms, increase exports, particularly of energy and heavy electronics/computing to eastern europe and take a hard line (or any line at all FFS) against playing border games. At the very least don't back out of pending deals because some Stalin wannabe asked you nicely.

Who knows of you could prevent it, but we could at least skew the cost benefit ratio away from rather than towards annexing one's neighbors.

What's so bad about Poland teaming up with Germany?

Nothing per se, it's, just further evidence of the GOP's racism and xenophobia. ;)

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 05:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
First you say alienated, now you've shifted to "strained".

Dude, Bush had the "you're either with us or against us" doctrine. And Obama is being accused of going on apology tours. Do try to reconcile these two narratives with your fellow ideologues, and come back to me.

Your last line doesn't make any sense to me.

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 09:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
First you say alienated, now you've shifted to "strained".

... to say the least.

It's hard to say cause we aren't really speaking to each other at the moment

I'm pretty sure that the Saudis and Israelis are alienated likewise ithe Kurds and Chaldeans too if there are any left alive at this point.

Do try to reconcile these two narratives with your fellow ideologues, and come back to me.

How familiar are you with the 1930s and how would you reconcile Chamberlain's securing of "peace in our time" with what followed afterwards?

Uttering an apology doesn't mean it is sincere or effective. Just as giving Germany Iran Sudetenland nukes + a massive trade package doesn't mean that peace has been secured.

Your last line doesn't make any sense to me.

It was suggested during a electoral debate back in 2012 that a resurgent Russia presented a serious threat, and that if the US was to withdraw from NATO commitments that those in Europe specifically Poland and Ukraine should look to their own defense.

This position was condemned as racist xenophobic, and trapped in the cold war by our current secretary of state.

The fact that it came true is just further proof of just how racist and xenophobic we are ;)

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 10:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Your Chamberlain reference: irrelevant to our conversation.

Lots of things are being suggested during electoral debates. Like nuking countries. Doesn't mean that's a serious conversation. Candidates say whatever their electorate wants to hear from them - you do know that, don't you?

The point is this. Bush did terribly on the allies front. He was uncompromising, and for stupid reasons. America looked selfish, hostile, bullyish. Whether Obama's efforts to amend that have been successful or not is irrelevant to the point that's being discussed: namely, the administration's behaviour.

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 10:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Your Chamberlain reference: irrelevant to our conversation.

It is supremely relevant, because if you can reconcile Chamberlain securing peace with WWII you can see how both narratives can be true.

Candidates say whatever their electorate wants to hear from them - you do know that, don't you?\

Yes I know that, I also remember the responses. the fact that specific "unfounded fears" turned out to be very founded indeed should make one intensely leery of other equally "unfounded fears".

Whether Obama's efforts to amend that have been successful or not is irrelevant

Again, it is supremely relevant. There are no prizes for good intentions, only results.

ETA:
Nobel peace prize appears to be the exception that proves the rule.
Edited Date: 30/7/15 10:29 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 30/7/15 10:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
We're not talking of securing peace. Nowhere have I mentioned peace, or securing peace, until you decided to bring it up. And neither have I mentioned intentions at any point. I specifically said alienating. As in, behaving in a way that destroys partnerships.

I've been trying to steer you back on course with the topic all the time, and you've been trying to deflect in all possible ways. I don't know what conversation you're trying to have, but it's not the one we started. And that's supremely frustrating.

You've been wasting my time. Supremely.

I think we're done here.

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