[identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Yes, I know that large chunks of the Bible are based on Jewish National Myth and 'make believe'.
But so are lots of English and American 'history'. It doesn't have to be absolutely true to be inspiring, uplifting or instructive to contemplate.

Dawkins claims that teaching the Christian faith, or any other religious faith to children is a form of child abuse. Me, I am not so sure. Children can be told the story of Noah's ark, but when they get to be old enough to ask serious questions, we can tell them the facts as we know them, that it never really happened.

This would give them a grounding in the culture that they were raised in, and also help them to think critically about their world in other areas - like politics maybe. "The value of fairy tales is not what they tell us about dragons, but they tell us how dragons can be beaten", to paraphrase Chesterton. The Christian faith gave us more than the Crusades and the Inquisition - ask for details ;)

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Date: 24/7/11 11:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
There's a difference between sharing stories and raising someone within a religion - mainly because the latter tends to be done with claims that those stories represent some absolute metaphysical truth. Dawkins is complaining about indoctrination, not just sharing cultural myths.

Most Christians are going to disagree with you on the 'Noah's Ark didn't happen' part for instance.

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Date: 24/7/11 12:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] midsummerskies.livejournal.com
All the Christians I know are firmly aware that Noah's ark didn't happen

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Date: 24/7/11 11:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
I remember mommy telling me the story about Cinderella, but I don't remember her requiring me to recite it as a gospel to the point that I'd pray to Cinderella every night.

The Christian faith gave us a lot, yes. It both gave us a lot and took a lot, but that's past. The question is, what do we do from here.

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Date: 24/7/11 11:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Curiously, we kids in BG used to have one god, Father Frost (in communist times). He was a Russian invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz). But then we had to substitute him with a new version (for political reasons) - Father Christmas. The only difference between the two is that Father Frost used to come on New Year's Eve (communists did their best to erase religious tradition, although it persisted in its underground existence), whereas Father Christmas (Santa Claus) now comes on Christmas Eve. They both give presents.

There was even a "transition" period when both old men used to exist in parallel realities, and for a time the kids were happy to receive presents twice - both on Christmas and New Year.

Now we have only one of them.

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Date: 24/7/11 11:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
There is a difference between teaching the impact of Christianity on European and US history, where it is inseparable from both, and mandating state propaganda to support a particular religion.

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eradicate religion!

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Re: eradicate religion!

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Re: eradicate religion!

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Date: 24/7/11 11:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
I don't support Dawkins because he is being a douche.

But let's leave most of religious education to families and clerics.

A fully secular and pluralistic study in the role that religion has played in human history and civilization is a good things to have in curriculum. Beyond that, and you go well beyond the rightful domain of public education and into parochial school.

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Date: 24/7/11 11:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
DeGrassed Tyson is my hero.

[Error: unknown template video]

Oh no he din'n!

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Date: 24/7/11 11:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com
Children can be told the story of Noah's ark, but when they get to be old enough to ask serious questions, we can tell them the facts as we know them, that it never really happened.

The same could be said for Aesop's Fables.

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Date: 24/7/11 11:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hardblue.livejournal.com
Fairy tales are more than true: not because
they tell us that dragons exist, but because
they tell us that dragons can be beaten.


I like that Chesterton quote too, and I thought I'd share the original, or at least the form I found it in.

Especially when one is not part of the affluent culture, I think there is more value in the thought that there might be a greater transcendental realm than merely the world as we know it. But, of course, all things can be abused.

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Date: 24/7/11 23:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
i completely disagree. when one is not part of the affluent culture we should NOT be giving them a diet of make-believe and other-worldly BS to distract them from this world.

they should look and acknowledge this world, and work to improve it. not hold in their hands some pipe-dreams of a better life after this one.

opiates for the masses are NOT healthy

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Date: 24/7/11 12:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] midsummerskies.livejournal.com
I don't support Dawkins because he's a dick and doesn't actually seem to know how religion works. It agrieves me greatly that it is his book the God Delusion that is always defended and crowed about by atheists when Dennet's breaking The spell is far superior

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Date: 24/7/11 12:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
I don't support Dawkins because of his ridiculous British accent.

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Date: 24/7/11 13:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com
Now, now. Don't be a linguaracist.

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Date: 24/7/11 13:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] medea34.livejournal.com
Breaking the spell is (IMO too) a better book. I found it easier to follow and more objective.

I am inclined too agree that you can teach children about religion without indoctrinating them. Telling them lies and convincing them that it's truth (especially the dangerous ones like an invisible, all powerful, punishing being is watching them and keeping score, that people they care about are going to suffer because they don't believe, and that faith is better than reason) is (IMO) abusive.

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Date: 24/7/11 17:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
I don't see how the state can enforce a ban on parents indoctrinating their children. Don't most parents try to influence the values and beliefs of their children, whether it is getting them to share their toys or say please and thank you, or to live their lives as good Christians/Muslims/atheists/hippies, etc.?

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Date: 24/7/11 13:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] artkouros.livejournal.com
One of the things we've lost is the way stories used to be told - stories that taught morality and the reason the universe is the way it is. Science has eaten up the old stories and we have yet to replace them.

But there's no reason that stories have to be true, or have to be believed to be true to be effective. "A Christmas Story" holds moral truths and everyone knows it's fiction. LOTR and Harry Potter have a universal moral lesson - the need to fight against evil in the face of overwhelming personal danger.

The thing that the Bible gives us that science doesn't is a human centered history and an anthropomorphic deity that expresses everything in simple emotional terms. The idea that god placed his bow in the sky as a sign that the world would never be flooded again makes a much better story than the diffraction of light through water droplets.

And I think there's a value in being told "wrong" stories. I still remember trying to ride my bike to find the end of a rainbow (there's not one) and trying to dig a hole to China (you can't do it).

When I was a tiny child I noticed that the sun set behind a hill. I reasoned that there must be a pool of water on the other side for the sun to set in. When I was old enough to climb the hill I ran up to the top so I could see where the sun set - when I got to the top there was nothing there but the other side of the hill. My universe became much larger that day.

The stories I heard and believed as a child also made my universe larger, and when I discovered that they were not true, even larger still.

I firmly believe that parents have the right to raise their children to believe whatever stupid things they want. Just as I believe that every adult has the right to believe whatever stupid thing they want. That's what happens in a society that values free thinking.

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Date: 24/7/11 16:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
I think your second paragraph undermines your first. Harry Potter is our new story. We have *tons* of stories in our culture, not all of them good. Lots of them blatantly exploitative and pushing consumerism. Not surprising since the stories are huge industry now.

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Date: 24/7/11 14:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
The Christian faith gave us more than the Crusades and the Inquisition - ask for details

OK, what have they done for me lately?

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Date: 24/7/11 14:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
A moral compass, so you don't get lost in the quagmire of decadence which is a direct path to Hell?

Oh, and they've been keeping the global gay/liberal/Islamofascist/Satanist hordes at bay, just for your safety.

What else... Christmas presents?

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Date: 24/7/11 14:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reflaxion.livejournal.com
Dawkins makes us decent, hard-working godless heathens look bad.

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Date: 24/7/11 15:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
Just because a person is raised in a household of a certain religion (or lack thereof) doesn't mean they're 100% going to turn out that way. People have the ability to decide for themselves what to believe, and when they become adults, many choose to go their own way. I don't think there is anything wrong with parents teaching their children what they believe to be true. If the parents were trying to suppress their children's ability to make decisions for themselves, then that would be a problem.

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Date: 24/7/11 15:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] superhyattbeam.livejournal.com
This. It really depends on the family's attitude. When I was in my early teens and realized that I'd lost my faith (if I ever really had it), my aunt sat my mother and I down and calmly explained to us both that since it was my mother's Christian duty to put me on the right path, she was going to go to hell too because I didn't believe in God.

That sort of thing is abusive, in my eyes. My mother simply taking me to church as a kid, not so much.

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Date: 24/7/11 15:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] evildamsel.livejournal.com
I was raised without any religious teaching in the home whatsoever. At all. Part of that was being born in the USSR, however we moved to the USA when I was nine and my parents didn't see fit to provide me with any religion. Actually the stories I was told were... The Three Musketeers and Ivanhoe. (My father is kind of strange.)

I'm not necessarily denigrating religion. I think it's important to learn about everything. But I'm not sure it's necessary. Nor do I think that religion teaches critical thought - generally the goal was the opposite result.

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Date: 24/7/11 15:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zeitgeistic.livejournal.com
I think calling it "child abuse" is taking it way too far, and so I find myself rolling my eyes at Dawkins a lot.

I would put stories like Noah's Ark on the same level as Santa Claus, to be honest, and telling kids that Santa isn't real when they're 3-4 years old takes a lot of the fun out of being a kid at Christmas. So I agree that there's nothing wrong with telling them fairytales and other stories when they're kids, as long as they are eventually told to consider these stories logically and decide whether they really want to believe a story that somehow fits a pair of every animal in the world onto one boat.

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Date: 24/7/11 16:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thies.livejournal.com
Just as I can agree with the spirit behind the ten commandments or certain aspects of other religions I can agree with a lot of what Dawkins writes while disagreeing with his child abuse ideas.

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Date: 24/7/11 16:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Dawkins is an Evangelist for his particular faith.

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Date: 24/7/11 17:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
that's just wrong.
he is not promoting a particular faith.

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Date: 24/7/11 17:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
have you ever met a child who was raised in a thoroughly christian household who was truly afraid he/she was going to spend eternity in hellfire because he/she was gay?

after you do, then we can talk about if it's child abuse or not

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Date: 24/7/11 17:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] midsummerskies.livejournal.com
not all Christians believe that or teach their children that though

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Date: 24/7/11 18:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
I don't support Dawkins because for everytihng he says, there are 12 others who can do it and say it better than he can.

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Date: 24/7/11 22:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com
The Bible to me is like Aesop's Fables. And yes, I am a Christian. However, every Christian knows that the Bible was written by men who allegedly had some connection with God. It wasn't written directly by God, so how can any logical person take it as absolute?

In my eyes, there's nothing wrong with teaching your children about faith and religion, and letting them make their own decisions on what to believe as they grow older.

Dawkins has a good point.

Date: 24/7/11 22:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Biblical literature is occult. It was originally intended only for the eyes of adult initiates. Raising children on occult literature is not healthy.

What???

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Re: What???

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