[identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Ok, I have this strange idea, and I want to share it. At some point in a child's education, you start teaching children Comparative Religion. You make it part of the Syllabus. maybe at the age of 5, maybe at 15, but you do it while they are young and keen, but old enough to reflect and consider. maybe you do it in stages relevant to their age, but you do it.

As well as demanding that kids learn to read and write, you also make Comparative Religion something that every kid should know by the time they leave school.

Perhaps the question should be "~How~ should we do this?"
For I can see the howls of outrage that would arise. I imagine that few parents would want their kids to know the truth - for the truth is that many themes that run through the Hebrew Scriptures, and thus make their way into Christianity and Islam today, are in fact Pagan myths that got recycled into moral stories and divine myths in order to underpin the newer and emergent societies that borrowed them. They may not have been true, but they were useful.

Take the story of Helel ben Shachar, aka Lucifer, Old Nick, and Satan the Devil.
See, Helel was once a Canaanite deity. His name can be translated as 'Shining One, Son of the Dawn'. Now, Shachar was one of the twin sons of the Sun god - Dusk and Dawn were Canaanite deities, you see. But Helel took it upon himself to rise in the morning before the Sun did, and to go on shining when all the other stars went out. for this presumptuousness, his grandfather cast him down out of heaven.

But of course, Helel is the planet Venus, and is simply a planet orbiting the sun. It has no aspiration to reach the mid heaven at all, but it made a nice story, so the Canaanites told it and Hebrews borrowed it. And when they needed somebody to blame for the lousy state the world was in, they couldn't go blaming God. Someone had to be the fall guy. So certain passages that obviously pertain to the King of Babylon and the ruler of Tyre became read another way, pointing back to Satan, even though Satan never gets a mention by name in Genesis and appears fully formed in the book of Job.

Ok, I got this from several sources like Funk and Wagnell, The Jewish Encyclopaedia, and several other books out of my local library when I was young - it is all on the internet now. Have a link:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

And it doesn't just stop there. there is a curious passage in Jeremiah , where the prophet bewails the fact that the people are bowing down to 'The Queen of Heaven' in the temple at Jerusalem. "The Queen of Heaven"? Surely, this is a Roman Catholic concept? Actually, no. the Hebrew God originally had a female consort, just like every other local god.

A small inscription has been unearthed in Palestine that says "I bless you in the name of Yahweh and His Ashterah." Yahweh you may recognise as the name of the God of the Hebrews, but Ashterah? It turns out that She was His Consort.

Of course, once Hebrew Monotheism got started, this has to be altered and pasted over quickly. But, Yes, the Jews borrowed a lot of their religion from the local Canaanite to start with, and we see traces of this in the OT. this book was interesting, I though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC

We may recall that David's wife hid a teraph, an idol, under the blankets, so that it looked like David was still sleeping. Ok, so what is a Teraph doing in the house of an ardent Monotheist like David? It is questions like these that deserve to be asked.

The upshot may well be that people are less inclined to go out and kill for the sake of a myth or story. OTOH , they may decide that they want to wage war to protect and commit acts of terrorism to protect these tribal myth that justify their own tribal supremacy.

It is hard to tell, until we try it. But is it worth a go? Galileo, Darwin and many others who proclaimed 'inconvenient truths' were persecuted. But their ideas were correct and the ideas triumphed to produce the world we know today.

there are , of course, other myths and stories that have come along since the story of Adam and Eve - outlandish tales like ' Democracy' and 'Justice'. I mean, can anyone find a single atom of justice, anywhere in existence? And people ordinary people actually running a society themselves ? Just look at what has happened to Russia , America and Europe! So long as they are not foolish enough to stick a gold crown on their heads, people Like Rupert Murdoch can go about as if they were above the law. In fact, they ~are~ the law, in real terms. had his henchmen been a bit more discreet, Murdoch would be running BskyB by now. maybe if he is smart , and plays wis cards well, he may yet still do it, when the dust settles and the heat dies down. But for now, his dreams must be sacrificed on the altar of public opinion to appease the Gods of Justice and Fairness. Not to mention people's belief in Democracy.

But ideas like 'Freedom', 'Justice' and 'Democracy' - we should also teach these to kids in our schools.
these are the things that prevent Murdoch taking over completely. People have fought and died for them as well, and maybe, just maybe, they are worth fighting and dying for.

But what say you? Should kids be taught to fight and kill for anything - if so, what ?

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Date: 19/7/11 09:21 (UTC)
ext_232730: (Default)
From: [identity profile] the-gabih.livejournal.com
This... seems a lot more like a rant about staunchly religious people who believe the Bible is the literal word of God rather than the beginnings of a debate on comparative religious classes, imo.

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Date: 19/7/11 23:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
You read too far.

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Date: 19/7/11 09:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] midsummerskies.livejournal.com
you end at a really different place from where you begin. Being taught to kill for something has nothing to do with being taught comparative religion.

I pretty much think the original question is a no brainer anyway, you cant really understand cultures and societies, including your own, unless you have some grasps of the religious beliefs and history that shaped them

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Date: 19/7/11 12:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Actually Lucifer was a derisive reference to the King of Babylon. Ancient World kings saw themselves as the sons of Gods and stars. The passage is essentially "Our God will have the last laugh, infidel!".

And if you...

Date: 20/7/11 17:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
... failed to kiss their feet, they kicked your ass.

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Date: 19/7/11 12:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] medea34.livejournal.com
I went to a catholic grade school (Ontario - Canada) and in grade 6 we had a week where we got a little bit of comparative religion - symbols, deities, practices, primary geographical locations and such. I think it's a good idea, just on a being a good citizen level, to know something about the beliefs of other people that share our planet. In grade 11 (public school) English we studied various creation myths in English class, which caused a little kerfuffle as the bible creation myth was taught along side the others, enraging the people of the book and some of the athiests to boot - but I still think it's a good idea. These ideas are quite helpful to an understanding of much of the great literature one studies in English.

Although I am largely atheist, religious beliefs and stories play a huge role in art, history and literature. It is foolish to keep children ignorant of this.

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Date: 19/7/11 14:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com
totally agree. my daughter is in catholic school now finishing grade 6 and they also got some basic facts about world religions and myths. i also think it's useful/interesting/necessary although we are agnostic (i won't say atheist because i don't feel compelled to change anyone's beliefs, while i may judge them ridiculous).

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Date: 19/7/11 13:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
Addressing the actual point: I learned more about how and why religion works from my 10th grade World Religions course (at a Catholic school) than I did from the other nine years of Catholic religious indoctrination. It's always interesting to see a fervent believer in one thing describing, in detail, the flaws of something else, without realizing that the issues described largely apply to their own beliefs. Of course Mohammad's followers had reason to exaggerate anything they could, and perhaps even to falsify miracles. But by the same standard, so did Jesus's...

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Date: 19/7/11 13:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] russj.livejournal.com
One can hardly call themselves educated without a knowledge of both ancient and modern religions. Just think of what you would miss from all the allusions in literature, movies--even music.

Which makes me wonder--does anyone still publish the Reader's Encyclopedia?
My father had a copy of it, and you could use it to look up these kind of things. I suppose that today, we just 'Google it'.

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Date: 19/7/11 14:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Definitely! I was researching some old movie studio stuff (I'm an old movie geek)! And I was thinking to myself, you know in the old days I'd truck to the library, and hope they had the information I needed, but for old movie studio information I was looking for, that would have been doubtful.

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Date: 19/7/11 14:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] essentialsaltes.livejournal.com
Though fascinating stuff, the things you're pointing out are far too detailed, I think, for what should be more of a survey course outlining the tenets, history, and modern state of various world religions.

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Date: 19/7/11 17:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Honestly I think this would be a waste of time, I'd much rather see that time spend on a class to develop critical thinking skills, showing kids how to challenge the ideas they are presented with and investigate them with both logic and research rather than just accept them.

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Galileo did more...

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Date: 19/7/11 23:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I think a comparative religions class is the perfect material to wrap critical thinking around. After all, the essence of the class should not just be "people think different" but also "why?"

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Date: 19/7/11 18:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com
Wouldn't this fly in the face of the same "separation of church and state" mantra that certain people use to keep Christian students from bringing their Bibles to school or praying before lunch?

Religions were briefly touched on in my high school world history courses, but in the regard of their connection to certain geographic areas and the customs and histories of those areas.

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Date: 19/7/11 20:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
They use it for that? I've never gotten in trouble for it, and in fact have been enough of a Photian to bring it to lunch just to show someone that verse X said X and meant Y and they were wrong, and not even the wackadoodle "God possesses me ROFLMAO" types prayed before lunch at my school. Are you by chance from somewhere other than the USA?

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Date: 19/7/11 23:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I think you're missing the point of the establishment clause.

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Date: 19/7/11 18:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sealwhiskers.livejournal.com
Well, I don't know what to say to this, other than in Sweden you are taught the origins of various world religions as well as their modern status and geographical locations. It starts in junior high, around the age of 13 and is a core subject which everyone takes for 3 years. (at least it was in my time). Sure it doesn't delve into the depths of a college class or discussion group, but you get the basics and you get tested on it, so that once you graduate high school you know the basics of all world religions as well as most know ancient ones. I've sort of taken it for granted I guess...

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Date: 19/7/11 20:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Sort of teaching all controversies, so to speak :)

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Date: 19/7/11 23:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Teaching Comparative Religion in schools: should we do it?


I'm all in favour of teaching cultural awareness. Awareness breeds knowledge breeds tolerance. Understanding "the other" makes it much harder for someone to construct "the other" in a manipulative way to influence people. At this point in time I think comparative religion makes sense, a) because religion is the major cultural identifier for most people b) because it's far simpler than teaching every culture and c) because religion is the primary differentiator of "the other" as used by those who manipulate the ignorant.

And yes, we should be indoctrinating our children with concepts like "democracy" and "justice".

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Date: 20/7/11 03:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malakh-abaddon.livejournal.com
I actually know a "Christian Wiccan" who says that there is a female deity, as well as a male deity. Basically the normal aspect of the feminine (the mother) that you see with Wiccans, but God himself (as the father head). Naturally I am butchering his belief, and will apologize to him at a later point. As for me, I was born into an Orthodox Jewish family, went Atheist for a time, and finally came back into an Agnostic view of religion.

As for the first part of your post, I say "no, absolutely not" to teaching children religion, in any form or fashion. Maybe it is because I have had Christianity shoved down my throat for thirty years, my concern is proselytizing, whichever religious views the instructor has, or outright slandering different beliefs, that contradict their chosen religion.

As for the last part of your post, what if anything should we teach kids to kill for, that is an ugly question. What is worth killing for is purely subjective, what I might find worthy of taking a life over, is not the same that you would, and as such should be left to the individual to decide. Outside of self defense, we should teach our children that killing is the non-preferred option to problem solving. We should teach children that fighting a war is not the answer to all of life's problems, and that option should be the absolute last resort.

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Date: 20/7/11 04:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thies.livejournal.com
I always thought religion has a good spot in history classes

It also...

Date: 20/7/11 17:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
... fits in ethnic literature classes.

Teaching kids to fight and kill...

Date: 20/7/11 17:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
The anthropological study of religious beliefs is a topic for college level study, so it should be introduced at the high school level. It is also important for children to develop a healthy respect for the pre-Christian religions that the Church attempted to exterminate. I was surprised when I mentioned the Zoroastrians and got startled reactions of "Zoro what?" from three educators. They had no idea that the Zoroastrian religion played an important role in Western culture as well as in the Jewish experience. At the elementary level, kids should be familiar with the gods that gave their names to the days of the week.

As for teaching kids to fight and kill, that's what video games are for.

(no subject)

Date: 20/7/11 17:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sealwhiskers.livejournal.com
Why do I feel like sometimes, here in the US, the teaching of religious beliefs, as a subject in school, gets confused with indoctrination and worship. That's not at all how it is done in secular countries that have world religions as a subject in school.

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