![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
The way that Japan reacted to the recent earthquake inspired an OP on here recently, and it's amazing and inspiring to see the way that Japanese society has reacted so swifly and effectively to a disaster of this magnitude.
Yet, when we look at many areas of the world, they are still affected by another greater disaster - The Era of Colonialism. Let me explain a little about this.
In Ghana, for instance, they grow quite a bit of cocoa, and thiis can be turned into chocolate, and that goes for a very good price on the world market. Yet the UK has a treaty with Ghana that says that Ghana cannot set up factories to turn the raw material into finished goods, but that the cocoa must be sent to Britain where the chocolate is made.
This is just one example of the ways in which the Colonial Powers still keep thing stacked in their own favour. Ok, I think this is unfair, and I want to see Fair Trade become the norm, and that means not just helping the developing countries by buying their goods at decent prices, but even changing the rules by which international trade is conducted. The rules we use today are all written by Western countries like the UK, and are designed to secure the Western counties an unfair advantage.
But trade is but one aspact of the negative fall out of Colonial influence. In short, we have given back several peoples their countries, but have not allowed them the opportunity to develop the social traditions and culture that will enable them to become viably independent.
We have heard a lot about Libya recently, and it suprises some people that Gaddafi can have a determined hard core of followers in spite of his appalling record abroad as a sponsor of international terrorism.
Yet the fact is that Libya has a system of Universal Healthcare, it has State Sponsored education to university level for all its citizens, it has social housing programmes and a high literacy rating.
It ranks at about 51 in the UN league tables, whereas places nearby like Egypt are 88, and some nearby countries are about 110 and 120.
And the reason is that Gaddafi has spent a large amount of the oil revenues his country has on Welfare. not on handouts, mind you, but on health and education programmes. oh , it has paid off and it's a shame that he is a despot, but tis guy does qualify as a ' benevolent dictator' if you want to use the term.
The difficulty is that he has not really groomed anyone to take his place - like all dictators, he does not want to share power or let anyone else fill his shoes. And this is more or less what the british Empire and other colonial powers have done to their ex subjects.
We have pulled out of India and other such places, but left a vacuum that we filled with people willing to let us rule by proxy. ok, i am falling back into bad habits here and talking to you as though you were all Brits, so let me rephrase that:
The British rulers of their Empire declared that it was now a Commonwealth. everyone was now free from British Rule - basically, the party was over, but nobody came in their own car and the hosts were not booking the cabs to get people home.
Consequently, the world is full of places where the Colonial masters pulled out and the stopgap that appeared were miltiary dictatorships like Idi Amin in Uganda and gaddafi in Libya, once run by the Italians as I recall.
Now, I may have been born long after the era of Colonialism, and I can say I never caused the problem. However if falls upon my generation to fix this awful mess, and the traditional answers have not worked out.
One of the big problems we see in the world is the lack of a 'world policeman'. Even the USA is unwilling to shoulder the burden of the £200 million a week it will take to enforce the no fly zone in Libya. If the rebels take down Gaddaffi, I hope his replacement will still allow the socialist progammes he instituted to survive. He has treated his people a lot better than Duvallier treated the people of Haiti.
But to return to my main point - the granting of independence has not fixed the evils of colonialism. What is needed now is for the affected societies to be encouraged an allowed to develope their own culture and customs that will allow free dom of speech and democratic representation.
How we can best achieve that is open to debate , and hence my OP. If you want to simply say that the British Empire has left a bitter and devisive legacy to places like Rwanda, I'm afraid you are preaching to the choir - i don't want a diagnosis, butrather some sort of remedy.
In short, we must have a more democratic world order where citizens of the developing nations can be allowed to exercise self determination and work towards becoming self sufficient in the way that Japan has done since WW2, but how can we in the Western World, where most of us are, help to developing countries to achieve this?
Ideally , i would like to see the Arab League, the African Union and bodies like this develop the same sort of potential as the EU. And maybe bodies like the EU, the AU and NATO could replace our reliance on the USA to keep the world at peace? What say you, readers of this community?
Yet, when we look at many areas of the world, they are still affected by another greater disaster - The Era of Colonialism. Let me explain a little about this.
In Ghana, for instance, they grow quite a bit of cocoa, and thiis can be turned into chocolate, and that goes for a very good price on the world market. Yet the UK has a treaty with Ghana that says that Ghana cannot set up factories to turn the raw material into finished goods, but that the cocoa must be sent to Britain where the chocolate is made.
This is just one example of the ways in which the Colonial Powers still keep thing stacked in their own favour. Ok, I think this is unfair, and I want to see Fair Trade become the norm, and that means not just helping the developing countries by buying their goods at decent prices, but even changing the rules by which international trade is conducted. The rules we use today are all written by Western countries like the UK, and are designed to secure the Western counties an unfair advantage.
But trade is but one aspact of the negative fall out of Colonial influence. In short, we have given back several peoples their countries, but have not allowed them the opportunity to develop the social traditions and culture that will enable them to become viably independent.
We have heard a lot about Libya recently, and it suprises some people that Gaddafi can have a determined hard core of followers in spite of his appalling record abroad as a sponsor of international terrorism.
Yet the fact is that Libya has a system of Universal Healthcare, it has State Sponsored education to university level for all its citizens, it has social housing programmes and a high literacy rating.
It ranks at about 51 in the UN league tables, whereas places nearby like Egypt are 88, and some nearby countries are about 110 and 120.
And the reason is that Gaddafi has spent a large amount of the oil revenues his country has on Welfare. not on handouts, mind you, but on health and education programmes. oh , it has paid off and it's a shame that he is a despot, but tis guy does qualify as a ' benevolent dictator' if you want to use the term.
The difficulty is that he has not really groomed anyone to take his place - like all dictators, he does not want to share power or let anyone else fill his shoes. And this is more or less what the british Empire and other colonial powers have done to their ex subjects.
We have pulled out of India and other such places, but left a vacuum that we filled with people willing to let us rule by proxy. ok, i am falling back into bad habits here and talking to you as though you were all Brits, so let me rephrase that:
The British rulers of their Empire declared that it was now a Commonwealth. everyone was now free from British Rule - basically, the party was over, but nobody came in their own car and the hosts were not booking the cabs to get people home.
Consequently, the world is full of places where the Colonial masters pulled out and the stopgap that appeared were miltiary dictatorships like Idi Amin in Uganda and gaddafi in Libya, once run by the Italians as I recall.
Now, I may have been born long after the era of Colonialism, and I can say I never caused the problem. However if falls upon my generation to fix this awful mess, and the traditional answers have not worked out.
One of the big problems we see in the world is the lack of a 'world policeman'. Even the USA is unwilling to shoulder the burden of the £200 million a week it will take to enforce the no fly zone in Libya. If the rebels take down Gaddaffi, I hope his replacement will still allow the socialist progammes he instituted to survive. He has treated his people a lot better than Duvallier treated the people of Haiti.
But to return to my main point - the granting of independence has not fixed the evils of colonialism. What is needed now is for the affected societies to be encouraged an allowed to develope their own culture and customs that will allow free dom of speech and democratic representation.
How we can best achieve that is open to debate , and hence my OP. If you want to simply say that the British Empire has left a bitter and devisive legacy to places like Rwanda, I'm afraid you are preaching to the choir - i don't want a diagnosis, butrather some sort of remedy.
In short, we must have a more democratic world order where citizens of the developing nations can be allowed to exercise self determination and work towards becoming self sufficient in the way that Japan has done since WW2, but how can we in the Western World, where most of us are, help to developing countries to achieve this?
Ideally , i would like to see the Arab League, the African Union and bodies like this develop the same sort of potential as the EU. And maybe bodies like the EU, the AU and NATO could replace our reliance on the USA to keep the world at peace? What say you, readers of this community?
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 13:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 15:09 (UTC)or is this an attempt at humour?
Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
There are two branches of government in the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. The "revolutionary sector" comprises Revolutionary Leader Gaddafi, the Revolutionary Committees and the remaining members of the 12-person Revolutionary Command Council, which was established in 1969.[89] The historical revolutionary leadership is not elected and cannot be voted out of office; they are in power by virtue of their involvement in the revolution.
From the wiki entry 'libya'. Unless u can show me different.
(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 00:57 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 01:04 (UTC)or
http://www.demsoc.org/blog/2009/03/20/in-libya-as-elsewhere-participation-does-not-mean-democracy/
but really greenman, google is your friend...
keywords= Libya+ direct + democracy
and many many many links will appear.
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 13:59 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 15:10 (UTC)Good to know that we Brits have been doing the right thing ever since we pulled out of India in 1948...
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 16:16 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 18:22 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 19:30 (UTC)You mean since you were kicked out?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:Continued...
From:Re: Continued...
From:Re: Continued...
From:Re: Continued...
From:Re: Continued...
From:Re: Continued...pt 2
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 19:50 (UTC)"The British rulers of their Empire declared that it was now a Commonwealth. everyone was now free from British Rule - basically, the party was over"
Is that really what they teach in British schools?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 20:14 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 14:05 (UTC)"Yet the fact is that Libya has a system of Universal Healthcare, it has State Sponsored education to university level for all its citizens, it has social housing programmes..."
Some of us don't see that as a good thing, and think it's not a coincidence that the same people who approve also think there's such a thing as a "benevolent dictator". After all, if it's right to use force to take the wealth people create, and to take credit for being generous when you redistribute that confiscated wealth, then what other uses of force against innocent people might you allow? It's annoying to have elections and opposition media and fair trials when you have a five-year plan to implement, so countries that are dedicated to "taking care of" their people tend to also shut those things down. China's got a pretty thorough welfare system, doesn't it? And we hear grumbling every so often in the US that we should forcibly shut down conservative media for expressing opinions that go against the welfare state. If you really want people to be free you should support "sic semper tyrannis" and economic liberty, not just elections. Democracy != freedom.
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 14:08 (UTC)And seriously, dude, the PRC is nobody's idea of a functional welfare state. Hasn't been since 1946, isn't that now. And democracy =/= to freedom, sure, but somehow methinks you're not referring to the Jim Crow South when you say that.
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 15:33 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 18:02 (UTC)You had me up to this point. There has been and always will be grumbling from any faction that its opposition should be silenced, and that includes from conservatives regarding leftists. It doesn't support your argument in any way.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 20:51 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 02:51 (UTC)Look, nobody forces foriegn oil companies to go to Libya and drill for oil. All gaddafi is saying is ' if you wanna drill in my back yard, fellas, i wanna see my cut for letting you in .
And they pay up, and Gaddaffi splits his cut with the people. All this talk of ' confiscated wealth ' is pure BS. I mean , does Ford motors ' confiscate my wealth' if I have one of their cars? of course not, it simply makes a transaction ' - I hand over money, they gimme a car.
In the oil companies case, they hadnd over a wad , they get the right to drill for oil in Libya. Who is complaining - Apart from you?
It's annoying to have elections and opposition media and fair trials when you have a five-year plan to implement, so countries that are dedicated to "taking care of" their people tend to also shut those things down.
weell it is news to Sweden , and all those other countries that stand above the USA in the world rankings. do you have any cites for any of your allegations?
China's got a pretty thorough welfare system, doesn't it?
No it doesn't. it spends its time killing sparrows until some bright spark tells them that they are over run with insect pests and the people are starving due to crop failure. It has also gone for a free market economy of late. next question , please...
And we hear grumbling every so often in the US that we should forcibly shut down conservative media for expressing opinions that go against the welfare state. If you really want people to be free you should support "sic semper tyrannis" and economic liberty, not just elections. Democracy != freedom.
cite please, and try saying it in something a bit more up to date than a dead language - again , have we got any cites for all this ?
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 15:28 (UTC)All of it.
No military aid
No Humanitarian aid**
No Charity
No Loans
No "Free" (aka managed) Trade Agreements
No Tariffs on the products they do make
Yes, I know it sounds harsh but here is the thing, every time you (as in anyone from the west, whether a private charity or government) tries to intervene and help it just makes matters worse by preventing them from developing the capacity to resolve these issues themselves. Even just the assumption that they want a western style democracy is a problem because it may just be that our style of government is not compatible with their culture.
Another major problem with aid is that it generally just serves to prop up the dictators and perpetuates the need for yet more aid. How you ask? Well, first because most governmental and quite a bit of Non Governmental aid is able to be siphoned through the dictators hands where he takes a cut to increase his wealth and then gets the credit for being "generous", but even where that does not occur you run into the problem of most assets being fungible at the national scale. That is your bringing in food means dear leader does not need to reserve any money to ensure that his subjects can eat so he gets to raise taxes or steal more from other sectors of the economy. Without your food he'd have to worry about leaving enough resources available to prevent all the people from starving. Now don't get me wrong, the dictator isn't going to care about a little starvation, he'll probably even welcome it as a way to keep the people to week to rebel, but he does need workers and if people get hungry enough there is always the lesson of the French Rebellion so he has to care about it a little.
In the end, yes the west screwed up coming out of the Colonial era and caused a whole boatload of problems all over the world but the solution is not the formalization of a world, or even a regional "policeman" but rather to get away and leave those countries alone so they can heal themselves and then start to build and grow in the directions they want to, not the direction we want them to
** = Note, here I am only referring to ongoing continuous aid. Humanitarian aid in the face of an immediate crisis such as a war or natural disaster should be provided whenever possible.
(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 15:36 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 20:53 (UTC)Odd to see a post I agree with from you but this is one of them.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 24/3/11 21:32 (UTC)Just leave the world alone and spare us your benevolent ideas, and neither do we need your fake and useless Western philanthropy (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/172752.html), thank you in advance, bye.
(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 03:19 (UTC)Just a sec - the ideas I wish to implement are in respect to Asia and South America also.
1)Africa doesn't need more Western military intervention, more debt forgiveness or more Western philanthropy. What we need is equal trade between nations and economic justice inside nations.
From the OP that you wrote and linked to here.
So, I am saying that we should abolish any trade agreements like the one that stops Ghana making chocolate bars, and we should also stop the USa dumping subsidies cotton and similar goods on thw world markeet and killing the local economies of developing countries stone dead.
Now, are you for it or against this proposal? Seeing as 'Fair Trade not Foriegn Aid' is part of a three point plan, it seems that , for all your protesting that ' there is nothing we can do, you seem very aligned on doing this bit. Can you explain how your ideas differ from mine here, exactly?
2) By 'Fair trade' I mean
a) we stop trading undeer agreements that clearly favour western interests, not just in Africa but elsewhere.
b) We give money directly to indigenous farmers in Africa , Asia and South America, plus anywhere else that local people want to form a local people's co op.
The OP you liked to criticises laons to governments - what harm is being done by buying direct from a workers co op, please?
3) Are you saying that supporting Amnesty International is a bad idea? if so, why?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 00:31 (UTC)I don't see the Arab League or the African Union following in the footsteps of the EU. On the whole, the EU hasn't really turned out all that well, judging by its economic crises and by the fact that the United States has to do the heavy lifting every time a crisis occurs.
(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 01:40 (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 25/3/11 03:34 (UTC)Correct, and which British political party makes this part of its manifesto for international foriegn policy. Take your time and think before you answer.
On the whole, the EU hasn't really turned out all that well, judging by its economic crises and by the fact that the United States has to do the heavy lifting every time a crisis occurs.
But what about the NGOs like Tradecraft and Amnesty International?