[identity profile] kris-schnee.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
There's a basic division in the US on moral and philosophical questions. It's pointless to argue politics without first looking at what those questions are, and at some of the positions being taken. I offer a few of them, and am sure you can come up with alternatives to my loaded answers. The main point is not in which answers are correct, but that we don't have agreement in this country on questions like these. Unless they're resolved in some way, it's difficult for us to even understand each other, let alone get along. Note also that both major parties seem to agree on some of these questions.

Human Rights:
A: "There are principles so important that we say they're God-given or part of "natural law", and are not subject to popular vote. We should be willing to kill and die for these."
B: "Rights are concepts created by governments, hopefully through popular consent. They can be added to or subtracted from according to whatever public policy demands."

Content of Rights:
A: "Life, liberty and property, or the pursuit of happiness, all trace back to the same concept: that individuals own themselves and shouldn't be killed, robbed or enslaved without some overwhelming reason. The basic right is to be left alone. The basic duty is to leave others alone."
B: "Everyone has a right to live and have a reasonably fair, dignified life. This means a right to receive everything they need in terms of food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, transportation, pensions, job placement, and so on, paid for by someone else if necessary. Everyone has a duty to give other people what they need." (See UN Charter on Human Rights.)

Taxation:
A: "Taxation in general -- not specifically in America -- is morally justified to protect people's rights, ie. mostly to fund the military, police and courts. Other uses are suspect. They need to be explained in terms of some overwhelming need to justify what taxation is -- taking things that don't belong to you."
B: "Taxation is justified whenever society has something it wants to buy. Any notion of property rights is subject to a democratic vote to negate them for any reason. There's nothing wrong with taking property by force when society wants it. If you don't like high taxes, win the vote next time."
C: "Answer B doesn't go far enough. It's justified not just for buying things, but to make society more equal. If someone is too rich, the government should take that money even if it ends up destroying the wealth, because making society more equal is a good role of government." (See John Rawls.)

Democracy:
A: "A popular vote is better than a dictator, but a pure democracy -- where 51% of the people can vote to kill the other 49% -- is evil. Democracy must be temptered with sharply limited government power, so that "the people" can't for instance elect the National Socialist German Workers' Party and have it grant its leader unlimited power."
B: "Democracy is the ideal form of government. If the people want something, who are some dead politicians to overrule the will of the living? A popular vote will prevent a thug like Chavez or a party like Hamas from coming to power or doing anything evil."

Capitalism vs. Socialism:
A: "Capitalism is the ideal of individuals being allowed to make their own decisions. It's the system with the most freedom and the best track record for creating wealth and innovation. Where it goes off the rails is mostly when it gets in bed with government. In contrast, socialists and communists are by definition in bed with government, and have a record of massacring millions of their own people. The ideal is capitalism with a limited government that has no abusive power for rich people to buy."
B: "Capitalism is evil. It's the system of corporations buying favors from government and stealing from the poor. Socialism and communism are nice in theory. The ideal is a system of government-run industries providing people with all their needs." (See multimillionaire Michael Moore.)

The Constitution:
A: "It lays out a specific set of powers for the federal government, and the states and individual Founders agreed that there would be no general-purpose "do whatever you want" power. If it acts outside those limited powers, the government's actions are illegal and dangerous because they move us toward being a pure democracy." (See eg. Federalist Papers, state ratifying documents, Amendment X.)
B: "It grants the government several unlimited powers to do whatever is useful for society. And why should we be bound by these dead white slaveowners' ideas? They couldn't have foreseen modern needs. So we shouldn't worry about the exact wording of the Constitution, only the general concept of having laws and elections."
C: "The government has legal and moral authority to do whatever it wants, because it's the government. We don't think about the Constitution." (See several Congrssmen re: the health care bill.)

Federalism:
A: "Important. Let the states handle all the things outside the Constitution, like abortion, marriage, and health care, and get fifty answers to choose from. Federalism will also help us get along peacefully on the policies we disagree on."
B: "Obsolete. The federal government should impose one solution on policies affecting the whole country, like having a national health system and a national school curriculum. We know the right answer, and shouldn't let backward states interfere."

Status of the country:
A: "Right now, most of what the federal government does is outside its legal authority. We should fix that by greatly reducing the size and power of the government and/or amending the Constitution to prevent further mission creep. It might become necessary to peacefully resist illegal acts by the government."
B: "Nothing's seriously wrong! We just need to raise taxes, trim fat from our budget, and do more federal investment in education and infrastructure. If some federal laws get struck down as unconstitutional, we'll promptly work around those and pass effectively identical ones. And if people resist, they're racist terrorists."

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Date: 21/3/11 18:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Cut maybe (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75)?

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Date: 21/3/11 18:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
Hahaha! How droll.

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Date: 21/3/11 19:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
"You're either for false dichotomies or you're against them"?

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Date: 22/3/11 00:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com
Yeah you can see his biases from a way back.

I (and I daresay a goodly proportion of society) doesn't agree with any of the positions he's outline.

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From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 22/3/11 03:52 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 22/3/11 04:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com
That's really not a fair brush you're painting the OP with.

There are trichotomies as well.

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From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com - Date: 22/3/11 23:16 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 21/3/11 19:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Your general thesis is correct although your wording in the position statements clearly shows where your sympathies lie because the "conservative"/libertarian positions are argued much more strongly and accurately to the general beliefs of those who hold them.

Also you have a problem in that with several of these there are well more than 2 - 3 positions commonly held.

That said, you are generally correct that discussion with someone who does not already generally tend to agree with you is exceedingly difficult because it is hard to understand someone whose views are so diametrically opposed to yours and not assume nefarious motivation or outright ignorance on their part. This leads to your inability to actually hear what they are saying hearing instead what you want to believe they are saying and common demonizing of their opinion at the very least and more often their actual person..

The question then becomes is it even possible to have a civil society when large population blocks are in possession of such diametrically opposed views? In the long term I think not and here is why.

It is sort of like asking is it possible for someone who is monogamous by nature and someone who is polyamorous by nature trying to have a long term serious relationship. There is constant friction and no real possible room for compromise, the relationship is either open or it is closed. If it is open then the polyamorous person will be happy, albeit tinged with sadness because their partner is not while the monogamous partner is generally miserable. If it is closed then the roles are simply reversed. It is possible for such relationships to work and even be generally good ones for an entire lifetime but it takes a LOT of hard work and communication and often lots of couples therapy and the use of new agey communication techniques like NVC (Non Violent Communication).

With a civilization however there is no therapist everyone can go to, there is no "conversation" they can all have because they are not all individual people to each other and so "the other side" is always evil at best and the rhetoric is constantly escalating with bouts of violence frequent.

The other problem you run into of course is that unlike with a personal relationship, if the work gets too hard to manage to keep it going you can always end it, break up/get divorced and move on to find more compatible partners. With a civilization, not so much, the "divorce" is better known as a civil war.

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Date: 21/3/11 20:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
How a Southerner in 1860 would have seen that last sentence:

And one Southerner can lick ten Yankees and there's no need to adopt that ebil commie socialism advocated by that Lincoln who likes his followers wooly-haired and bandy-kneed. We'll need a thimble for all the blood that will be spilled when these cowardly simpletons and wage-slaves dare raise a hand against the flower of Southern manhood.

How a Northerner in 1865 would have answered that last sentence:

Mudsills and greasy mechanics, eh? Then why are we in Richmond and Goldsboro and you surrendering? Dipshits, trying to fight modern times for an anachronistic and atavistic social organization. We're #1, USA! USA!

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The root

Date: 21/3/11 19:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] russj.livejournal.com
+1

"For every 1000 people hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one hacking at the root."
(Henry David Thoreau)

You, my friend, are getting at the root.

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Date: 21/3/11 19:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kgbman.livejournal.com
I concur with [livejournal.com profile] rasilio: your thesis is correct though I would argue with some of the positions you've attributed to others. Winston Churchill once said that the English-speaking peoples generally consider it bad manners to discuss first principles. Whenever disagreements come in political discussion, we tend to assume it's because our opponent is simply irrational or because he is ignorant of some empirical facts.

You are also correct in that the two parties in the US are in agreement on many of these issues. I would add that that is the case for almost every political scene in the Western world. There are left-liberals and right-liberals, with the latter wanting to take things a little slower than the former. That's why I usually find political discussion to be fruitless. Everyone agrees on the principles, and they're just arguing about the empirical details in some particular cases.

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Date: 21/3/11 20:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
You are also correct in that the two parties in the US are in agreement on many of these issues.

I don't see how you can say that. The two main parties don't agree on most of these issues, one holds A and the other holds B for at least 4 of them, and probably the last one too (would make 5).

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Date: 21/3/11 20:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Point the first: Or alternatively option C) Human rights are defined as whatever we define them as at this specific point and there is always an economic conception that defines the limits positively and negatively of both.

Point the second: Option C) Liberty is maintained so long as despotism is too expensive militarily and culturally maintained, not a moment longer or shorter.

Point the third: Option D) Taxation is what separates the civilization from the chiefdom, and if you don't like it, go live in the interior of New Guinea or the Kalahari Desert.

Point the fourth: Option C) Democracy is a term that means a republic based on popular consent, the term's original meaning long since irrelevant save to anyone except specialists on Classical Greek history.

Point the fifth: Option C) Capitalism is a system that like any other has virtues and faults, socialism emerged in the 1830s and 1840s as a critique of those faults, and in the 20th Century problems in certain societies came home to roost and that sent everything to Hell in a handbasket for a while but had nothing necessarily to do with capitalism or the ideas of Karl Marx and Hegel.

Point the Sixth: Option D) The Constitution is a document of the 18th Century, when what we would today term oligarchy was identified as liberty, and reflects the virtues and failings of that time, but is increasingly inadequate for a 21st Century superpower and attempts to hold to its letter and spirit sound increasingly like Lucius Cornelius Sulla or perhaps King Canute.

Point the Seventh: Option C) Federalism is neither anarchy nor despotism. Shocking concept to grasp, I understand.

Point the Eight: Option C) The country's problems are not irresolvable, it's just nobody has the will to make the hard decisions necessary to resolve them, regardless of which side of the spectrum they're on.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
Point the sixth:

Isn't this just an excuse to call the OP a silly Cnut?

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Date: 21/3/11 21:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Good response.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
"Point the third: Option D) Taxation is what separates the civilization from the chiefdom, and if you don't like it, go live in the interior of New Guinea or the Kalahari Desert.
"


Go back and reread what he said because he did not make the standard libertarian "All taxes are theft" claim and your statement only works as a criticism if he did.

In fact the proposition he made specifically made that claim that taxation was morally justified. In fact the entire central thesis of that statement was to define the limits of what taxation is morally justified for.

"Point the fourth: Option C) Democracy is a term that means a republic based on popular consent, the term's original meaning long since irrelevant save to anyone except specialists on Classical Greek history. "

Yeah right, So the term democracy can change meaning, however the term fascist has to by definition refer to a Pan German Nationalist and anyone who is not a Pan German Nationalist by definition cannot be a Fascist no matter how much their policies and beliefs resemble those of historical Fascists. Similarly you're only a Socialist if you advocate nationalizing all industries immediately overnight.

I think you need to make up your mind, does the meaning of political terms morph with common usage or is it constant. Either way you look like an idiot on one of your stances.


For the rest of your points it just shows that as usual you don't take the time to try and understand that the poster is saying and rather read what you want him to have said.

For example you are criticising his values statements as if they are his personal values, and it is true you can easily see where his biases lie because he is unable to accurately state the positions opposed to his. However as he states in the OP...

"The main point is not in which answers are correct, but that we don't have agreement in this country on questions like these"

he doesn't have to get them exactly correct for his point to stand because they are not central to the point. His point is that it is not just that nobody has the will to make the hard decisions but rather there are 2 general ideal systems that could guide us to a solution however there is no compromise possible between them and nothing even approaching a consensus as to which we should use and that unless/until we can come to some agreement on these ideals there will be no possibility of solving the issues because no matter what is done the side who opposes the ideal backing the action will scream bloody murder.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I stopped reading your loaded questions when it became apparent you didn't understand the definition of the words "democracy", "capitalisim" and "socialism".

OK, you're a libertarian, you don't like other people, we get it. Perhaps you should do a little reading beyond Ayn Rand before you try to classify others based on beliefs you don't understand.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Judging by the furry avatar you could already guess that he doesn't have a good opinion of other people.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com
Even though you use some loaded words and obvious bias in your descriptions, I think you are totally right in concept. Most argument about politics boils down to these underlying philosophies, which is why most argument about politics goes nowhere.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
I didn't realize it was about people agreeing with each other. I thought it was about people not letting their disagreements dictate of a course of civil unrest because your neighbor had an abortion, or your neighbor goes to church, or your neighbor votes Green party.

At some point, some of us in the country have completely lost sight of the Rational Adult concept: just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't keep our hands to ourselves and act like grown-ups. That's sort of the whole point of a democracy, really.

People who think peace only comes from a monolithic consensus on policy, politics and morals are why things like fascism get off the ground in the first place.

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Date: 21/3/11 21:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
I think you do a good job of presenting the views of one side of these basic issues. When you try to boil views down to such a limited number you tend to leave out shades of differences. Politics aren't binary, there's more to it than ones and zeros.

So I'll give my take on simplifying it. I think there are two important basic issues most politics seems to revolve around (I know it sounds like I'm being binary too but stay with me on this). One of them is economic freedom, the other is social freedom.

I think Conservatives want maximum economic freedom but more limited social freedom (curtailing women's reproduction, denying certain benefits to gays that others enjoy, laws against drug use, etc., just to clarify). Liberals want maximum social freedom (the exception for many being their attempts to curtail gun rights), but limits on economic freedom. I think Libertarians emphasize both freedoms, but the ones currently taking power in the GOP don't emphasize social freedoms as much. There are other views as well but for the sake of simplicity I'm going to just mention those.

I think the whole "big government vs. small government" angle is a bunch of bullshit, thus far whenever someone claims to want less government they seem to only want it for themselves. Neither American party so far has done anything to make government smaller.

As for taxes, I think if you grow and prosper under the protection of this country then you need to be willing to pay for the benefits. I highly doubt anyone who has done so well here would have done nearly as well if they had grown up in some third world country. Rendering unto Caesar isn't theft. Call it a protection racket if you want, but you're free to leave anytime if you don't like it.

As for social programs, I think many believe a noble society takes care of those less fortunate. I think there should be limits, both out of fairness and because the danger of enabling one's dependency, but those limits need to be fluid and fair because we never know what crisis will be next.

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Date: 21/3/11 22:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
You've written something a sensible conservative would have in a perfect world. But then again, in a perfect world I'd be a conservative.

[Tips Hat.]

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Date: 22/3/11 00:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
Human Rights: B. If natural human rights exist in that are somehow granted by a principle of the universe, I want to see them laboratory-tested.

Content Of Rights: Neither.

Taxation: None of the above.

Democracy: Neither.

Capitalism Vs Socialism: Neither.

The Constitution: None of the above.

Federalism: Neither.

Status Of The Country: Neither.

Your multiple choice quiz doesn't match me hardly at all. In fact, it's remarkably limited. Try better?

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Date: 22/3/11 04:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Everyone thinks it's great to spend money on teachers or roads or space or what have you, but very few people (in my experience) know, fundamentally, why.

To create the workforce and infrastructure necessary to provide for a growing modern economy.

No, the free market would not do that, at least, with nowhere the efficiency.

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Date: 24/3/11 07:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foolsguinea.livejournal.com
lots of straw men here, but A under taxation amuses the heck out of me:
A: "Taxation in general -- not specifically in America -- is morally justified to protect people's rights, ie. mostly to fund the military, police and courts. Other uses are suspect. They need to be explained in terms of some overwhelming need to justify what taxation is -- taking things that don't belong to you."
You think police & courts are paid by taxes? In the USA? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
They have traffic tickets & court costs. Courts are pay to play, baby, they don't even need the state anymore.

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