[identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
The sad but true story of wages in America:

Recent debates about whether public- or private-sector workers earn more have obscured a larger truth: all workers have suffered from decades of stagnating wages despite large gains in productivity. The current public discussion illogically pits state and local government employees against private workers, when both groups have failed to sufficiently benefit from the economic fruits of their labors. This paper examines trends in the compensation of public (state and local government) and private-sector employees relative to the growth of productivity over the past two decades.

This paper finds: U.S. productivity grew by 62.5% from 1989 to 2010, far more than real hourly wages for both private-sector and state/local government workers, which grew 12% in the same period. Real hourly compensation grew a bit more (20.5% for state/local workers and 17.9% for private-sector workers) but still lagged far behind productivity growth.


The authors don't offer an explanation for this, but there are lots of ideas floating around. The one I think has the biggest impact is that fewer people are necessary for economic growth or productivity gains. Take manufacturing, for example: it's common for people to complain that the U.S. doesn't make things anymore, but that's simply not true. We just eliminated a bunch of manufacturing jobs and replaced them with a few engineers cleverly designing factories. The cheap stuff that requires cheap labor (for now) is generally what went overseas.

At this point I expect someone to bring up Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, claiming that automation always creates jobs because he says so. His section on machinery ignores the role of corporations, assumes that nobody hoards cash (corporations have $2 trillion in cash right now), assumes that investment or spending of profits will result in jobs, and assumes that these jobs are as good as the ones replaced. It also implies that automation did not result in job loss in one particular industry without addressing the true causes of his century-old scenario: did wages rise because of the industrial revolution? Did the price of cotton drop because of agriculture in the U.S.? Was one guy buying millions of cotton shirts? We have no idea, because he provided no other information than two pairs of numbers. It's not a rigorous study of anything, so don't bother bringing it up.

Back to our story. The elimination of relatively repetitive jobs, and subsequent concentration of profits, seems a natural consequence of capitalism. Our economic system does not promise anyone jobs, it simply says that people who risk their capital reap the profits - and income gains have been going to the people who have capital. It seems increasingly clear that there is not much correlation anymore - after all, our economy is growing, productivity has grown immensely, and profits are at record highs. If profits/productivity and employment went together, there would be more jobs. This is not to say that we should get rid of capitalism, just that we should be totally honest about how employment fits into it.

But here's the interesting part: what happens when non-repetitive jobs become automated? IBM's Watson has other potential applications than embarrassing humans: it could diagnose patients quickly and minimize error - there goes a bunch of our doctors (and probably more of our nurses). What if we all had wireless electricity? There goes a bunch of our electricians. And so on, and so forth. Then our economy focuses even more on design and occasional maintenance of the generally self-sufficient things: the engineering, the research (until those become automated or unnecessary), and the ideas themselves. Also, interestingly, art and literature cannot be automated, so perhaps we will see more of a focus on that sometime. In the very long-term, we might even get to a point where nobody has to worry about money, because everything is cheap or free.

But that's probably far enough in the future that we need to worry about how to address this potential issue. I think we need to focus more on all that design stuff I just mentioned. There is also a shortage of plumbers and electricians in some places; people have this bizarre idea that the American dream is your kid going to college and getting a job in a cubicle, instead of good (and important!) blue-collar work. I also think that if we really want to increase employment, we might have to implement policies that reduce profits - if you accept my premise that the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Higher wages, preventing offshoring, higher taxes for infrastructure investment, things like that.
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(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 21:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Income disparity creates class struggle. The less real wages people earn in the lower brackets, the more we regress back into an age of only lower and upper class people, no middle class.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 21:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com
Firstly, how did these productivity gains come about? If it is indeed automation then it could be that people are working less, or at least "less hard". Would you prefer wages double if it required the effort or hours needed to double as well?

Why did we even have an industrial revolution, if the point wasn't to take less time and effort and get more in return? If it was only the company owners who were meant to be deriving a better ROI from the increased efficiency, I would have voted to keep horse buggies in use.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 21:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Re: oh hey is dat sum excluded middle

Date: 16/3/11 21:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
Does this mean you are advocating a mixed policy of exterminating the noble savage?

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 21:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Determined by the productivity, in real dollar terms, of the worker. Did you read the study?

Do they define this? Because at this point, it sounds like circular logic.

You are free to argue that increased unemployment is good, but you haven't done it yet.

Because I'm not arguing anything other than that your argument is logically flawed because the assumptions are not facts.

Re: Just some of the myriad of reasons

Date: 16/3/11 21:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Because that's not very high on list. Just because you think it's common doesn't make it so.

Re: Just some of the myriad of reasons

Date: 16/3/11 22:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
Image (http://s744.photobucket.com/albums/xx81/drewishdrewid/?action=view&current=tumblr_lf89wxB3ja1qe0eclo1_r34_500.gif)

Re: oh hey is dat sum excluded middle

Date: 16/3/11 22:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
The Overman don't need no stinkin' social contract.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
Let's say one guy on a combine = 30 oldschool farmworkers.

Should that guy get 30 times their wage?

Combines are of course expensive, but what about computers?
With kiosks in malls and online registration renewal, the MVA doesn't need nearly as many employees. Should the remaing employees get paid so much more, since "they're" producing as much as the old workers?

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
The answer is we should be down to a 20 hour working week by now, with enough money to raise a family of 5 in a healthy, happy environment on one wage. But the capitalists fucked us.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Why should one expect to be able to buy less with their money when their productivity has increased?

This is why people will be coming for you with molotov cocktails monopoly man.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
More progressive income tax rates and stop union busting.

Re: Just some of the myriad of reasons

Date: 16/3/11 22:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
While that certainly is a valid criticism of American Corporations (and don't get me started on the Off shoring Bullshit, at best it is revenue and has never saved anyone a dime, at least when it comes to knowledge based work)it would not be a particularly relevant factor because the creation of new jobs tends to focus more on the creation of new businesses and industries from among those unemployed.

Re: oh hey is dat sum excluded middle

Date: 16/3/11 22:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
No that was seriously a question.

PROPOSE SOMETHING

Because here is the problem, I can't think of a single policy the government can implement that could actually help mitigate "Wage Stagnation"

Think it through, what policy could you set forth, how can your word it such that it's intent could not be instantly perverted to achieve the exact opposite end that you sought?

Now I'm not claiming to be the reincarnation of Adam Smith and Albert Einstein's love child but I'm a reasonably smart and informed guy who is at least passingly familiar with most fields of economic and political thought and I can't even think of a proposal which could work in a theoretical ideal world where everyone would axiomatically follow it because it was a law, forget one which can work in the real world.

So since you seem to think that there is a way for government to deal with wage stagnation without implementing wage mandates which in turn immediately lead to price controls and a centrally planned economy lets see what you got.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Neither would impact wage stagnation at all.

They might be able to impact income inequality but they cannot stop corporations from just outsourcing the work to cheaper locations leaving wages stagnant.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Yes but none of these thing are capable of causing Average profit margins from reverting to the mean.

And it is harder for the Doctor to get richer from reduced health care costs, It is much easier for everyone else. The Doctor will just have to find a new career, probably not one paying as much as he used to make, but also probably not one which will require he go $200K into debt before he can even start his career.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] korean-guy-01.livejournal.com
I see the actions of the USG as a bigger problem, including devaluing of the dollar & tax increases on corporations.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 22:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
Not 30 times their wage, but he should certainly get a raise.

In which case productivity increases > wage increases.

Re: oh hey is dat sum excluded middle

Date: 16/3/11 23:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com
Wage mandates and price controls are a pretty blunt-force-trauma way to deal with the problem. To a point, they are necessary and useful, and there are lots of reasons to believe the minimum wage has helped more people than it's hurt, but I certainly wouldn't recommend any more specific rules of that sort which apply across the wage scale.

But there are lots of strategies by which a government can indirectly influence corporate decision-making, short of setting up an entirely planned economy; we could have a partially planned economy, which, having been the status quo in most of the developed world for most of the modern age, is hardly a new idea. Most of these strategies fall under one pejorative umbrella or another, such as "punishing success" and "wealth redistribution". It's popular to strawman those ideas as being identical with communism or "completely centrally planned", but we know better, yeah?

So the usual progressive solutions still apply: heavier progressive taxation to create an situation of diminishing returns for companies which concentrate wealth rather than reinvesting their assets in their own workforce. Money spent at the bottom of the company should get far better bang-for-buck than money spent at the top, and if that isn't the case, the tax curve isn't shaped right.

Strong unions, but well-architected and well-governed vis-a-vis the needs of their members. it's astounding how many people just pick a side "unions good"/"unions bad" without even considering the possibility that whether the union helps or hurts might have something to do with its internal governance. This isn't something the government can or should mandate on its own, but government establishments could be providing resources which enable union-starters to set up their organizations with effective and well-thought-out checks and balances from the beginning.

None of this is new. It's just ignored sometimes.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 23:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
How do you know it's his sweat?

Technology is doing a lot of the work.

(no subject)

Date: 16/3/11 23:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Well, it would. Nations with stronger and more active unions haven't suffered the same kind of wage stagnation that the US has. What it will do is increase unemployment. However, that's why you also need the more progressive tax system. This pays for the welfare sufficient to keep people who really shouldn't be in the workplace; the sick and the useless. By forcing these people into work through draconian or insufficient welfare systems you decrease the overall productivity of the workforce. These people cause a net loss on the economy; the rich pay more in tax to keep these people out of the economy, thereby raising the total productivity of the economy, which the rich take a disproportionate amount out of, thereby making up for their tax increase.

I know you're ideologically blinded to this, but it seems to work in places like Scandinavia and here.

(no subject)

Date: 17/3/11 00:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
Do you know how long a person had to work in 1711 to earn enough to pay for basic food and lighting in their residence?

Do you know how long today?

Think about this, a person in America earning minimum wage, earns enough in one second to pay for enough electricity to light a bulb for one hour. To light a candle for one hour back in 1711, I assure you it was more than a second.
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