Jobs and the economy.
16/3/11 11:28![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
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The sad but true story of wages in America:
Recent debates about whether public- or private-sector workers earn more have obscured a larger truth: all workers have suffered from decades of stagnating wages despite large gains in productivity. The current public discussion illogically pits state and local government employees against private workers, when both groups have failed to sufficiently benefit from the economic fruits of their labors. This paper examines trends in the compensation of public (state and local government) and private-sector employees relative to the growth of productivity over the past two decades.
This paper finds: U.S. productivity grew by 62.5% from 1989 to 2010, far more than real hourly wages for both private-sector and state/local government workers, which grew 12% in the same period. Real hourly compensation grew a bit more (20.5% for state/local workers and 17.9% for private-sector workers) but still lagged far behind productivity growth.
The authors don't offer an explanation for this, but there are lots of ideas floating around. The one I think has the biggest impact is that fewer people are necessary for economic growth or productivity gains. Take manufacturing, for example: it's common for people to complain that the U.S. doesn't make things anymore, but that's simply not true. We just eliminated a bunch of manufacturing jobs and replaced them with a few engineers cleverly designing factories. The cheap stuff that requires cheap labor (for now) is generally what went overseas.
At this point I expect someone to bring up Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, claiming that automation always creates jobs because he says so. His section on machinery ignores the role of corporations, assumes that nobody hoards cash (corporations have $2 trillion in cash right now), assumes that investment or spending of profits will result in jobs, and assumes that these jobs are as good as the ones replaced. It also implies that automation did not result in job loss in one particular industry without addressing the true causes of his century-old scenario: did wages rise because of the industrial revolution? Did the price of cotton drop because of agriculture in the U.S.? Was one guy buying millions of cotton shirts? We have no idea, because he provided no other information than two pairs of numbers. It's not a rigorous study of anything, so don't bother bringing it up.
Back to our story. The elimination of relatively repetitive jobs, and subsequent concentration of profits, seems a natural consequence of capitalism. Our economic system does not promise anyone jobs, it simply says that people who risk their capital reap the profits - and income gains have been going to the people who have capital. It seems increasingly clear that there is not much correlation anymore - after all, our economy is growing, productivity has grown immensely, and profits are at record highs. If profits/productivity and employment went together, there would be more jobs. This is not to say that we should get rid of capitalism, just that we should be totally honest about how employment fits into it.
But here's the interesting part: what happens when non-repetitive jobs become automated? IBM's Watson has other potential applications than embarrassing humans: it could diagnose patients quickly and minimize error - there goes a bunch of our doctors (and probably more of our nurses). What if we all had wireless electricity? There goes a bunch of our electricians. And so on, and so forth. Then our economy focuses even more on design and occasional maintenance of the generally self-sufficient things: the engineering, the research (until those become automated or unnecessary), and the ideas themselves. Also, interestingly, art and literature cannot be automated, so perhaps we will see more of a focus on that sometime. In the very long-term, we might even get to a point where nobody has to worry about money, because everything is cheap or free.
But that's probably far enough in the future that we need to worry about how to address this potential issue. I think we need to focus more on all that design stuff I just mentioned. There is also a shortage of plumbers and electricians in some places; people have this bizarre idea that the American dream is your kid going to college and getting a job in a cubicle, instead of good (and important!) blue-collar work. I also think that if we really want to increase employment, we might have to implement policies that reduce profits - if you accept my premise that the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Higher wages, preventing offshoring, higher taxes for infrastructure investment, things like that.
Recent debates about whether public- or private-sector workers earn more have obscured a larger truth: all workers have suffered from decades of stagnating wages despite large gains in productivity. The current public discussion illogically pits state and local government employees against private workers, when both groups have failed to sufficiently benefit from the economic fruits of their labors. This paper examines trends in the compensation of public (state and local government) and private-sector employees relative to the growth of productivity over the past two decades.
This paper finds: U.S. productivity grew by 62.5% from 1989 to 2010, far more than real hourly wages for both private-sector and state/local government workers, which grew 12% in the same period. Real hourly compensation grew a bit more (20.5% for state/local workers and 17.9% for private-sector workers) but still lagged far behind productivity growth.
The authors don't offer an explanation for this, but there are lots of ideas floating around. The one I think has the biggest impact is that fewer people are necessary for economic growth or productivity gains. Take manufacturing, for example: it's common for people to complain that the U.S. doesn't make things anymore, but that's simply not true. We just eliminated a bunch of manufacturing jobs and replaced them with a few engineers cleverly designing factories. The cheap stuff that requires cheap labor (for now) is generally what went overseas.
At this point I expect someone to bring up Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, claiming that automation always creates jobs because he says so. His section on machinery ignores the role of corporations, assumes that nobody hoards cash (corporations have $2 trillion in cash right now), assumes that investment or spending of profits will result in jobs, and assumes that these jobs are as good as the ones replaced. It also implies that automation did not result in job loss in one particular industry without addressing the true causes of his century-old scenario: did wages rise because of the industrial revolution? Did the price of cotton drop because of agriculture in the U.S.? Was one guy buying millions of cotton shirts? We have no idea, because he provided no other information than two pairs of numbers. It's not a rigorous study of anything, so don't bother bringing it up.
Back to our story. The elimination of relatively repetitive jobs, and subsequent concentration of profits, seems a natural consequence of capitalism. Our economic system does not promise anyone jobs, it simply says that people who risk their capital reap the profits - and income gains have been going to the people who have capital. It seems increasingly clear that there is not much correlation anymore - after all, our economy is growing, productivity has grown immensely, and profits are at record highs. If profits/productivity and employment went together, there would be more jobs. This is not to say that we should get rid of capitalism, just that we should be totally honest about how employment fits into it.
But here's the interesting part: what happens when non-repetitive jobs become automated? IBM's Watson has other potential applications than embarrassing humans: it could diagnose patients quickly and minimize error - there goes a bunch of our doctors (and probably more of our nurses). What if we all had wireless electricity? There goes a bunch of our electricians. And so on, and so forth. Then our economy focuses even more on design and occasional maintenance of the generally self-sufficient things: the engineering, the research (until those become automated or unnecessary), and the ideas themselves. Also, interestingly, art and literature cannot be automated, so perhaps we will see more of a focus on that sometime. In the very long-term, we might even get to a point where nobody has to worry about money, because everything is cheap or free.
But that's probably far enough in the future that we need to worry about how to address this potential issue. I think we need to focus more on all that design stuff I just mentioned. There is also a shortage of plumbers and electricians in some places; people have this bizarre idea that the American dream is your kid going to college and getting a job in a cubicle, instead of good (and important!) blue-collar work. I also think that if we really want to increase employment, we might have to implement policies that reduce profits - if you accept my premise that the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Higher wages, preventing offshoring, higher taxes for infrastructure investment, things like that.
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Date: 16/3/11 16:40 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 16:43 (UTC)Much of the work that is offshored is work that would have been done by people with high school educations, for a decent wage. It's just harder for people to get jobs with good pay now, which is good in the long run but still contributes immensely to unemployment right now.
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Date: 16/3/11 16:52 (UTC)Real hourly compensation grew a bit more (20.5% for state/local workers and 17.9% for private-sector workers)
How is that stagnation?
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Date: 16/3/11 20:38 (UTC)oh hey is dat sum excluded middle
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Date: 16/3/11 16:49 (UTC)Real hourly compensation grew a bit more (20.5% for state/local workers and 17.9% for private-sector workers) but still lagged far behind productivity growth.
Sounds like stagnation to me.
As far as increased productivity, one major cause:
(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 18:29 (UTC)And yeah, I think technology is a major driver of increased productivity.
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Date: 16/3/11 17:58 (UTC)Judged by what standard?
What is the philosophy that states that productivity gains must be tied to wage gains in a 1:1 ratio? And does it account for mechanization/automation?
Actually, it doesn't assume that. But it also doesn't assume that they're shitier.
Good. It means we'd have less medical grunt work and better healthcare. Doctors want to get into specialties anyways, so this would enable it even more, if the general practitioners were all robots.
Good. Although it won't happen.
So, what's the complaint then?
Maybe increasing employment artificially is bad. You assume it's good, and that's what your logic rests on.
(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 18:26 (UTC)Not really a complaint, the point is that in the short term, it appears that many of our jobs are going away. This is good from a long-term, big-picture perspective, but in the short term a lot of people will be unemployed and/or poor. It's then an issue of whether that's a problem or not. The only real complaint is that people assume economic growth results in more jobs, when sometimes (like now) it can result in fewer.
I don't assume anything is good or bad, I simply offered suggestions for increasing employment in line with my argument that growth and employment are decoupled.
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Date: 16/3/11 18:33 (UTC)(no subject)
From:Just some of the myriad of reasons
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Date: 16/3/11 21:45 (UTC)Why did we even have an industrial revolution, if the point wasn't to take less time and effort and get more in return? If it was only the company owners who were meant to be deriving a better ROI from the increased efficiency, I would have voted to keep horse buggies in use.
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Date: 17/3/11 18:12 (UTC)Re: Assuming I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly
Date: 16/3/11 18:22 (UTC)I think the productivity gains came from technology: automation and software. One person can do lots of things with a computer that used to take dozens of people, and that trend is still going strong.
Re: Assuming I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly
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Date: 16/3/11 18:37 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 20:16 (UTC)And no, it's not irrelevant. He specifies that there are three ways in which profit must be spent, but excludes cash-hoarding. And I make the distinction between savings and hoarding because savings implies future spending. Hoarding is just holding onto cash for an indefinite period for no particular reason.
Yes, sometimes giving more wages to the worker will result in jobs. It depends on the situation. Right now, demand is way down and people cannot afford health care, school, moving to find a new job, etc. Those two factors make the economy inefficient. There's no reason we can't have trickle-up economics.
Hazlitt specifically states that those profits spent on consumption will increase employment. I am saying that it depends.
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Date: 16/3/11 20:37 (UTC)This is true, however if this were driving the gap between wage gains and productivity gains we would have seen far higher unemployment over that period. Which doesn't mean it is not a factor but that it is not the driving factor.
"At this point I expect someone to bring up Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, claiming that automation always creates jobs because he says so. His section on machinery ignores the role of corporations, assumes that nobody hoards cash (corporations have $2 trillion in cash right now) assumes that investment or spending of profits will result in jobs, and assumes that these jobs are as good as the ones replaced"
I fail to see how the existance or non existance of corporations changes anything about Hazlitt's argument. The assumption that the spending of profits will result in jobs is an axiomatic assumption of economics, if it does not then what exactly are they spending the money on?. No, he does not assume that the newly created jobs are "as good" as they ones they replaced (where by "as good" I am assuming you mean "well paying") just that they will be created. Finally as far as corporations sitting on 2 trillion in cash, well not they aren't...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116613784785344.html
"Point No. 2, about safety cushions, alerts us to the fact that $1.93 trillion of liquid assets would not begin to cover $3.67 trillion of short-term debts, let alone ongoing expenses such as payroll. To describe the liquid assets as "hoarding" (regardless of debts) is witless. The recession in 2008-09 would have been far less painful if nonfinancial corporations in 2007 had been "hoarding" more liquid assets (they had $1.53 trillion). "
So yes, they are sitting on about 2 trillion in liquid assets, that doesn't mean it makes any financial sense for them to start selling those assets off to raise money and hire workers that they might or might not make enough money to keep employed past that 2 trillion running out. Further if they all tried to sell off those assets at the same time it is highly likely the value of them would crash as there would not be enough buyers for them all.
"Back to our story. The elimination of relatively repetitive jobs, and subsequent concentration of profits, seems a natural consequence of capitalism."
No not really, at least not Free Market Capitalism. It is far more a consequence of corporatism or Crony Capitalism. The more free the market the better displaced workers are able to use their talents to create new jobs which equal or exceed their former salaries. The less free the market the harder it is for displaced workers to create new industries and corporations and the more dependent on large favored corporations they are. Further in corporatist systems there is always a tendency to concentrate greater and greater wealth into the financial systems and away from the segments of the economy which have greater impact on the real world
"it simply says that people who risk their capital reap the profits - and income gains have been going to the people who have capital"
Now if only this were true. See when you look at it the companies who actually risk their capital have NOT been making the profits. It is largely the companies with the greatest access to government so that their "risks" are covered by the taxpayer that make the profits. Look at the 50 most profitable companies last year...
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/performers/companies/profits/
There are about 10 that don't receive significant direct government subsidies or protections for either their market position or business model from government regulation, that number drops to about 6 if you include copyright protections on software as a regulatory protection of a business model.
(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 20:37 (UTC)Profits are only at record highs when measured by absolute dollars. However this is not particularly meaningful because inflation alone would mean that the average year should set a "record high"...
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/11/corporate-profits-not-actually-at-record-high/
In order for the "Corporations are hoarding profits" meme to be true you would be able to show a shift in profit margins, that would mean they would be keeping a larger percentage of ever dollar they spend. However when you look at the numbers you do see a relatively short term spike in profit margins lasting about the last 8 years however as the following article points out...
http://www.investingcontrarian.com/index.php/financial-news-network/get-ready-for-profit-margins-to-shrivel-up/
"“Profit margins are probably the most mean-reverting series in finance, and if profit margins do not mean-revert, then something has gone badly wrong with capitalism. If high profits do not attract competition, there is something wrong with the system and it is not functioning properly.”?~ Jeremy Grantham"
Now, is it possible that "something has gone badly wrong with capitalism"? Sure but the only thing with the power to interfere with the feedback mechanism's that force margins to revert to the mean is government interference in the marketplace
"But here's the interesting part: what happens when non-repetitive jobs become automated? IBM's Watson has other potential applications than embarrassing humans: it could diagnose patients quickly and minimize error - there goes a bunch of our doctors (and probably more of our nurses). "
We all get richer from it.
Seriously. If the talent currently tied up keeping or making us healthy were freed up to pursue more medical research imagine the new therapies they could invent to be programmed into Watson. Will any of them make a half million a year running their practices anymore? No, probably not but then the purchasing power they would gain from the reduced cost of living would largely if not totally offset that. Even if it doesn't, it just means that wealth will be getting transferred from one group of high income professionals to the rest of society as their health care costs decrease.
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Date: 16/3/11 21:02 (UTC)While a 100-word blurb from a notoriously poor opinion page with no attribution to any sources is great, I'd like to see where that number came from. Lumping them all together ignores that plenty of corporations have no debt and tons of cash, notably tech companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Prices and interest rates are remarkably low right now - you'd think they would be hiring and spending. Instead, Microsoft borrowed money...for share buybacks.
Your Free Market Capitalism (why is this capitalized?) assumes that displaced workers can use their talents to create new jobs. My links indicate this is increasingly difficult. And what makes you think they can match their former salaries when the sector in which they spent 20 years was replaced by a laptop?
You have odd ideas of government subsidies/protections, and of the role they play in how much profit companies make. Besides, the principle stands unless you want to argue they didn't risk any capital.
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Date: 16/3/11 21:39 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/3/11 22:12 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/3/11 00:51 (UTC)Do you know how long today?
Think about this, a person in America earning minimum wage, earns enough in one second to pay for enough electricity to light a bulb for one hour. To light a candle for one hour back in 1711, I assure you it was more than a second.
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Date: 16/3/11 22:55 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/3/11 01:25 (UTC)It's a small price to pay to reduce the risk of serious illness, needless pain and possibly death that, by your own admission, technology could easily prevent. Apart from the thrill of Luddism, what benefit is there to foregoing the use of life enhancing, life saving innivations?
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Date: 17/3/11 05:28 (UTC)1) Technology has made people better off in tangible ways. Most people have access to computers and the cost of entertainment and has decreased considerably.
2) Consumption on non-necessary goods has continued to rise in the last thirty years, and is about 50% of consumption (http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/2002-03.pdf).
3) The idea that labor should get the lion's share of the benefit of technology is somewhat ridiculous. Oracle doesn't make ERP systems for free. So yes, accountants are able to get a lot more done today than they were twenty years ago. But any given company is also spending millions on software and consultants. And they should be saving some money to have the incentive to implement this technology.
4) We are hitting a period where employers have the ability to demand total efficiency from it's workers. The expansion of on-demand consultants and freelancers and temps and an unemployment system that allows employees to go on furloughs without too huge a hit to their livelihood all sorta played into creating this new theory of zero-margin employment.
We can say it's bad because it's hurt tons of people. But employees fought as much for the ability to freelance and remove themselves from the cogs of the companies as companies conspired to look at their bottom line.
We gladly look at Europe and say that their stagnation is okay because they have social nets in place. And I'd buy that maybe it'd be nice to have stronger social nets. But we obviously have a tolerance for stagnation. So I think there's something a bit deeper in what we think is wrong with America.
(no subject)
Date: 17/3/11 14:52 (UTC)So you don't think people should be compensated in line with their economic value? A few people have brought this up, but it doesn't make sense to me. Obviously you have to subtract the cost of technology and investment, and account for potentially increased supply of workers since fewer are needed. But why shouldn't other companies make higher offers to lure people away from its competitors, and why shouldn't that result in compensation closer to economic value that we see now?
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