[identity profile] 404.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Time magazine has an interesting OPed piece advocating for US intervention into Libya, the story is here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599205747000;_ylt=AlaQAT8F0gGOcLmOzYJ421RH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0cTIyYjdyBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDLWxpYnlhJiMzOQ--#mwpphu-container

[Poll #1714840]

I think we should stay out of it, there is nothing that the US can do to help the rebels without 1) they losing legitimacy and 2) we coming across as sticking our noses in another place they don't belong, giving the groups that already hate us another reason to shout "I told you so". Besides, I thought this was the purview of the UN, anyways: to help mediate conflicts and so forth.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chickendelight.livejournal.com
I think we should stay out of it. We are not the police of the world.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Thank you.

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Date: 7/3/11 20:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anadinboy.livejournal.com
trouble is you are the police of the world though. "the greatest amongest you shall be the servant of all"

sing along with me

Date: 7/3/11 21:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com
we are the world, we are the children...

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Date: 7/3/11 17:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tridus.livejournal.com
Besides, I thought this was the purview of the UN, anyways: to help mediate conflicts and so forth.

LOL!

The UN is the single most ineffective body on the planet. Even if it wanted to do something it wouldn't be capable of moving in a timely manner, and that's getting past the issue of countries on the security council having deals for commodities with the despot and thus not wanting the rebels to succeed. Freedom for Libyans? Pfft, we've got oil to worry about.

I'm firmly in the "no-fly zone" camp. We shouldn't put people on the ground, and we should let them fight it out themselves. We CAN help them by neutralizing Gadhafi's air power. Since this is the specific intervention they're asking for, there's not much "I told you so" (at least no more so then usual, and certainly no more then you'll get by doing nothing). Also given the relative imbalance in air power, this comes at comparatively low risk to American personnel.

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Date: 7/3/11 18:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mijopo.livejournal.com
The UN is the single most ineffective body on the planet.

Yes, that's the story that's often told, and yet, when the US went to war in coordination with the UN in the Gulf War 1, they realized their objectives, Kuwait attained some form of justice and there was no distraction for vague but unrealizable goals.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com
I voted Other options (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/918494.html?thread=70421982#t70421982).

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Date: 7/3/11 17:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Let UN, or AL, or OPEC deal with it - that option wasnt included in your poll, but as far as the US is concerned, stay out of it, so: #1.

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Date: 7/3/11 18:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com
I don't think the Arab League has the teeth for that these days. As far as I know they haven't done any large-scale interventions since the Lebanese Civil War. OPEC, that shining beacon of valor and virtue, would probably side with Qaddafi. And I don't think the UN should be meddling in what are purely internal civil wars.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
I don't think the *US* should do anything, I think the *UN* should do something and the U.S. should be a major part of that. Context in political matters is hugely important even if the technical function is the same. Even if it was all U.S. troops, its a world of difference if it's a world mandated action and not a U.S. invasion.


Kadaffy has comitted war crimes now, plain and simple. The world needs to come down on him like a ton of bricks.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tridus.livejournal.com
If you wait for the UN to act, it'll be sometime in 2012 if it happens at all. This is the same organization that put Libya on the Human Rights Council.

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Date: 7/3/11 17:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
The only option I would be in favor of is providing humanitarian aid, especially in refugee camps in Egypt and Tunisia, possibly airdropped into some of the Libyan cities.

Anything beyond that is out of the question.

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Date: 7/3/11 23:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
especially in refugee camps in Egypt and Tunisia

Best comment so far. Let those who want to fight, fight their own war. Look after those who just want to live.

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Date: 7/3/11 18:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
I think your point 1 is the best reason. The rebels are doing fine on their own, and the U.S. jumping in might just turn public sentiment against them - and bite us in the ass decades down the road, as we've seen in other countries.

Also, we have to deal with whoever comes out of this in power. It's easier to prevent WMD proliferation when you didn't actively campaign to wipe out the winning party.

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Date: 8/3/11 01:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whoasksfinds.livejournal.com
and if rebel leaders ask for US assistance?

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Date: 7/3/11 18:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com
I'm seconding [livejournal.com profile] rasilio's comment above: humanitarian aid, nothing more. It's a civil war; getting involved in civil wars on any side is always a bad idea (Vietnam and Korea worked out so well for us). Yeah, it sucks, and watching the atrocities is hard, but how would you ("you" meaning people in general, not the OP) feel if it was you, during the American Civil War, and the British Empire stepped in to help the Confederacy? I'm not equating the Libyan rebels to the Old South...frankly, I hope they win, hang Qaddafi from a tree, and dismantle his decades-long kleptocracy. I am saying that it's just a terrible idea to get involved in civil wars.

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Date: 7/3/11 18:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
None at all, same as with any other country besides Libya. The most disastrous thing to do in the middle of a revolution is for any outsider to intervene in it. That has an unfortunate tendency to backfire horribly.

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Date: 7/3/11 19:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hey-its-michael.livejournal.com
I second those who say humanitarian aide and nothing more. We don't belong meddling with other nation's affairs. If anything were done, it should be through an international body, NOT unilateral U.S. action.

Pappa Stijntje's verdict:

Date: 7/3/11 20:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Pentagon out, CNN in!

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Date: 7/3/11 20:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
I'm torn. On one hand, a republic is always better for a country than a dictatorship. On the other hand, since the invention of nations as sovereign entities intervention is akin to going into someone else's house and dragging them into a rehab clinic. It's good in the long run, but frankly illegal.

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Date: 7/3/11 20:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
All or nothing. So, nothing. Dropping supplies or humanitarian aid in a conflict zone just feeds the belligerents as they are quickly stolen and confiscated from the general populace. Sticking planes overhead without any control of the overall situation is strategic madness-- you don't deploy resources and airmen without any designs on the end-game or control. You either go and impose your will, or you stay out of it.

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Date: 7/3/11 22:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0304/As-refugees-pile-up-at-Libya-borders-nations-step-up-humanitarian-efforts


There are ways of providing humanitarian aid that do not require airdrops. There are quite a few refugees who have fled the country and lets face it, the 2 largest neighbors who are getting the bulk of the refugees are not in terribly good shape themselves at the moment.

I think there is a definate role for the US and the West in at the very least seeing to it that these refugee camps do not become humanitarian disasters.

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Date: 7/3/11 20:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anadinboy.livejournal.com
killin gaddafi last week, with a couple of decent bombs to his compound would have been a humaniterian and golden opportunity to welcome in a new goverment of decent ppl and begin a great relationship with them.

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Date: 7/3/11 21:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
It would have completely delegitimised any democratic movement and set the scene for a new dictatorship. Like I've said below, the US could achieve its self serving interests best by backing Gadaffi.

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Date: 7/3/11 21:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
The US should back Gadaffi.

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Date: 7/3/11 22:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
The situation is well under control. Committees are being formed in the UN and NATO.

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Date: 7/3/11 23:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
What a waste. The US could have predator drones in there blowing up weddings and birthday parties by now!

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Date: 7/3/11 22:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
We should intervene if there is something in it for us. I'm not talking about peace of mind and the joy your soul gets from doing a good deed - I'm talking about things that will make or save us money.

That being said - since there is no stable government to set up deals with - there really isn't anything to gain. Let them fight it out, and send a nice card to the winner.

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Date: 8/3/11 03:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
We should do the right thing, stay out for now.

Giving those who already hate us another reason to do so should not factor into our thinking. We're a super-power after all and can take a bit of criticism.

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Iraq should intervene

Date: 8/3/11 04:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com
Iraq should prove that it is no longr a US puppet. The Iraqi government should deploy it's Blackwater troops into Libya.

/sarcasm

Re: Iraq should intervene

Date: 8/3/11 06:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
No need. The Libyans have access to cheaper mercenaries, er, I mean contractors, from Africa.

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Date: 8/3/11 09:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farchivist.livejournal.com
My answer: Not a damned thing. We need to step pack from this "policeman of the world" schtick that's gotten us in trouble and focus on North America and North Korea (the latter due to our obligations to South Korea and the fact that we never actually ended the war).

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Date: 8/3/11 09:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com
Why is it that whenever there is an actual, clear cut, case for humanitarian intervention (at least insofar as a no-fly zone) and many lives will be saved as a result, it's inevitably ends up that, upon consideration, we realise that such intervention will cause more problems than it solves?

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Date: 8/3/11 14:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
Realizing it would cause more problems than it solves is a great thing to realize upon consideration rather than realizing it two years into the intervention.

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