[identity profile] shadowyphantom.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123257047606303395.html

I personally think that the government has overstepped its bounds, and serious bullshitter-y is afoot.  No government should pander to any religious group; this just goes to show how much fear the extremists of Islam have instilled in most governments around the globe.


 

The latest twist in the clash between Western values and the Muslim world took place yesterday in the Netherlands, where a court ordered the prosecution of lawmaker and provocateur Geert Wilders for inciting violence. The Dutch MP and leader of the Freedom Party, which opposes Muslim immigration into Holland, will stand trial soon for his harsh criticism of Islam.

Mr. Wilders, who made world news last year with the release of a short anti-Islam film called "Fitna," certainly intends to provoke. In his 15-minute video, he juxtaposes verses from the Koran that call for jihad with clips of Islamic hate preachers and terror attacks. He has compared the Koran to Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and urged Muslims to tear out "hate-filled" verses from their scripture.

This is a frontal assault on Islam -- but, as Mr. Wilders points out, he's targeting the religion, not its followers. "Fitna," in fact, sparked a refreshing debate between moderate Muslims and non-Muslims in the Netherlands, and beyond.

There are of course limits to free speech, such as calls for violence. But one doesn't need to agree with Mr. Wilders to acknowledge that he hasn't crossed that line. Some Muslims say they are outraged by his statements. But if freedom of speech means anything, it means the freedom of controversial speech. Consensus views need no protection.

This is exactly what Dutch prosecutors said in June when they rejected the complaints against Mr. Wilders. "That comments are hurtful and offensive for a large number of Muslims does not mean that they are punishable," the prosecutors said in a statement. "Freedom of expression fulfills an essential role in public debate in a democratic society. That means that offensive comments can be made in a political debate."

The court yesterday overruled this decision, arguing that the lawmaker should be prosecuted for "inciting hatred and discrimination" and also "for insulting Muslim worshippers because of comparisons between Islam and Nazism."

The concept of punishing people for "insulting" religious feelings sounds dangerously close to what Islamic countries have long been pushing for: that Western nations adopt blasphemy laws and stop the "defamation" of Islam.

The Amsterdam court yesterday obliged. This is no small victory for Islamic regimes that seek to export their censorship laws to wherever Muslims happen to reside. But the successful integration of Muslims in the Netherlands and the rest of Europe will require that immigrants adapt to Western norms, not vice versa. Limiting the Dutch debate of Islam to standards acceptable in, say, Saudi Arabia, will only shore up support for Mr. Wilders's argument that Muslim immigration is eroding traditional Dutch liberties.

Islamists have long tried to silence Mr. Wilders, who has been living for years under 24-hour police protection. Dutch judges may finally succeed where jihadist death threats so far have failed.

 

The bad rap of Islam

Date: 25/1/09 23:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Islam gets a bad rap from a number of quarters, but it is very little different from Judaism or Christianity. All three religions have their zealots and all three have their cosmopolitans.

Islam has been rightly characterized as a Christian sect. It was founded under the auspices of Jewish and Nestorian advice. At the time, Christian sects that did not toe the line of Constantinople were considered a threat to the Byzantine Empire. There was religious violence on both sides.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 25/1/09 23:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peebeebaynut.livejournal.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 01:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Would you say the same thing for a video that accused Jews of the Blood Libel and called them "Christ-Killers?" Considering what both accusations led to in Germany not that long ago?

Re: The bad rap of Islam

From: [identity profile] ex-lost-kit.livejournal.com - Date: 26/1/09 02:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 20:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
I can't tell by the content of the story whether he was that big a hater that he posed a threat to the social peace. Given his extreme views, the incitement charge may have some standing.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 27/1/09 00:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
This film (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3130) reminds me of the hours of my youth spent watching the reporting from Vietnam. It was pretty heavy stuff. In that case, the jihad was against the enemies of capital.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 04:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hunterkirk.livejournal.com
Oh you forgot Cao Dai, LDS, Jehovah Witness, Bah'ai, and countless other groups who claim a link to Christianity or even to be Christian.

But most standard Christian Denominations would reject such claims. The trouble is people can claim anything they want in such matters. Some see it all as sub sects of Judism, but Jews would likely reject such claims.

As for radical other religious groups can you back up large scale violence in the name of other religions in recent history... ie the last 50 years.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 19:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Naturally, Trinitarians reject all other sects as non-Christian. In fact, the Trinitarian tradition is similar to Islam in the sense that it went through a period of "convert-or-die." Early Christians saw the Trinitarian test as a corruption of the original Apostles' Creed. They made some excellent arguments along those lines. The Nestorians rejected the Creed on puritanical grounds.

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From: [identity profile] hunterkirk.livejournal.com - Date: 27/1/09 00:23 (UTC) - Expand

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Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 20:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
Can't speak for the rest but Baha'i's certainly don't consider themselves to be Christian. One of my best friends is Baha'i and he'd probably shudder at the very thought.

If you wanna get technical about it, all these religions we've named have their roots in Judaism. Just as most of the major Eastern religions have their roots in Hinduism.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

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Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 20:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
Islam gets a bad rap from a number of quarters, but it is very little different from Judaism or Christianity
Judaism of like 2000 years or so BC or Christianity of the Dark Ages, perhaps.

All three religions have their zealots and all three have their cosmopolitans.
Funny, I don't see death threats, riots, and murders carried out because someone offended a religious aspect of Judaism and Christianity. I don't see Judaism or Christianity carving out the genitals of their girls, or stoning them for getting raped, or for falling in love with someone not of their religion.

It's time to take off the blinders and stop making excuses. Just because they stem from Judeo-Christian beliefs doesn't mean they are "very little different" from those religions.

If they want to live in other nations they need to be willing to abide by their laws, instead of demanding a special set of laws only for them. They have no qualms with insulting other religions such as saying the Holocaust never happened, but speak out enough against Islam and the death threats start pouring in.

It's okay though. It sounds like The Netherlands and much of Europe is going to learn the hard way. Again. Hopefully this time they won't wait until it's too late.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 20:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
Shit I screwed up the italics, but you get the picture.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 26/1/09 22:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
1) Tell that to the woman that got acid thrown in her face by the Charedis in Israel because she wore jeans and didn't adhere to their version of Judaism. Tell that to the Ugandans suffering from the Lord's Resistance Army insurgency. Tell that to the extremist wings of Protestantism that refuse to recognize that a man can and does rape women of his own accord, not because the woman forced him to (I'm looking at you Pat Robertson.

2) Taking the above into account?

3) I'm sure that the events of how colonialism proceeded (missionaries arrive, start spreading the Gospel, demanding special privileges, society in question reacts, Western armies arrive, society in question is conquered, rinse, wash, repeat) never entered your mind, now did it? Or that Christians don't need to demand anything because we're the top dogs in the race of Man as a whole because our guns, germs, and steel made it so?

4) Considering that Europe reconquered Spain and expelled and slaughtered nearly all Muslims in former Ottoman Balkans territories, Europe will be just fine. They've a long record of killing Muslims and Jews both. Did you think that Al-Andalus got to be renamed Hispania again by sweetness and light?

Re: The bad rap of Islam

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 27/1/09 00:17 (UTC) - Expand

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Re: The bad rap of Islam

Date: 27/1/09 00:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
I've worked with modern Muslims who share nothing in common with the adulteress stoning, homosexual necklacing Muslims that people think of as exemplary of the religion.

Re: The bad rap of Islam

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 27/1/09 00:23 (UTC) - Expand

Re: The bad rap of Islam

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 27/1/09 01:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 25/1/09 23:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] savagemind.livejournal.com
This is a timely post. It allows us to see the consequences of some of the suggestions being made here: http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/20917.html

Real question then...what's more dangerous: slandering Islam, denying the holocaust, or criminalizing both?

(no subject)

Date: 26/1/09 04:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hunterkirk.livejournal.com
Considering the Muslims in France have rioted numerous times and have created areas in which the police dare not go. Considering that they have murdered people who speak out against them in some European countries. Considering that in the UK they have openly intimidated people who are not muslim and live in majority Muslim communities. I think when people are being threatened and killed it becomes a important matter.

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From: [identity profile] savagemind.livejournal.com - Date: 26/1/09 23:14 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 26/1/09 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

Two words: Bill Donohuge

From: [identity profile] savagemind.livejournal.com - Date: 26/1/09 22:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 26/1/09 01:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Um...if I were to start publishing that Jews boiled Christian babies and drank their blood and desecrated hosts, I'd rightly be in deep shit and also a racist prick. What this far-right asshole's done has been precious little different from the above.

There's a difference between criticism and racism. The former can and does happen regularly. The latter....this SOB is a prominent example of it. European tolerance....faugh!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 26/1/09 02:47 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 26/1/09 04:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tvuutietyle24.livejournal.com
On what base do you label Wilders as far-right?

(no subject)

Date: 26/1/09 04:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hunterkirk.livejournal.com
Considering the Muslims in France have rioted numerous times and have created areas in which the police dare not go. Considering that they have murdered people who speak out against them in some European countries. Considering that in the UK they have openly intimidated people who are not muslim and live in majority Muslim communities. I think when people are being threatened and killed it becomes a important matter.

(no subject)

Date: 26/1/09 07:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
Yes, many countries in Europe have slowly been giving way to Muslim radicals for years now. Fuck that. If they want Islamic law, let them move back to a nice little Islamic theocracy in the Middle East.

Criticism is a cost of free speech. Freedom of speech means tolerating speech that you don't like, while it also gives you a right to tell them to go fuck themselves. It doesn't give you a right to threaten them, and being offended doesn't give you a right to kill someone.

Why should Islam get special rights? What if we made it illegal to say anything offensive to anyone? Shit, we'd all be in prison then.

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Date: 26/1/09 08:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madali.livejournal.com
Even in LJ we sometimes ban people who keep making troll posts and being generally insulting and a dick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Islam

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lordtwinkie.livejournal.com - Date: 27/1/09 05:46 (UTC) - Expand

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