http://luzribeiro.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2014-07-06 07:37 pm

Homes for the homeless

Much in line with the monthly topic, comes this:

Giving apartments to the chronically homeless can save taxpayer dollars, advocates say

Sometimes you have to spend money in order to save money and get the job done, as any progressive would tell you...

"Giving apartments to homeless people who've been on the streets for years before they've received treatment for drug or alcohol problems or mental illness may not sound like a wise idea. But that's what's being done in cities across America in an approach that targets those who've been homeless the longest and are believed to be at greatest risk of dying. They're people who once might have been viewed as unreachable. But cities and counties affiliated with a movement known as the 100,000 Homes Campaign announced this past week that they had gotten more than 100,000 of these people off the streets and into permanent housing. We first told you about this initiative earlier this year. Local governments and non-profit groups do most of the work. The money comes mostly from existing federal programs and private donations, and there's evidence that this approach saves taxpayers' money."

At least from a first reading, this sounds like a nice response to a serious problem that affects millions of people in America, particularly veterans, pensioners and handicapped. In fact this has already been done by Utah, and has shown some promising results while saving a lot of money:

Utah Solves Homelessness by Giving Away Homes

Utah Is on Track to End Homelessness by 2015 With This One Simple Idea

"The state is giving away apartments, no strings attached. In 2005, Utah calculated the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for an average homeless person was $16,670, while the cost of providing an apartment and social worker would be $11,000. Each participant works with a caseworker to become self-sufficient, but if they fail, they still get to keep their apartment".

Of course, there are caveats. First off, they'd probably need to expand a bit more on what "existing federal programs" exactly means. Because, the way it's formulated right now, it could mean practically anything involving tax money - therefore by definition it's not saving taxpayer money, but is rather spending taxpayer money. On the other hand, if it were all private donations there'd be no controversy, but that's apparently not exactly the case, is it.

Some'd also argue that the only reason it saves money is because entitling penniless people to medical care just for showing up at the ER door is much more expensive in comparison. Homeless are known to abuse that practice because they have nothing else, but the ER providers get to bill the taxpayers for the time they "waste" tending to these people, anyway. In a sense, it's not that housing everyone on taxpayer funds is intrinsically frugal, but it's that the entitlement to infinite health-care in its current form is so stunningly wasteful that housing the homeless only saves money by comparison. In other words, housing the homeless has a potential to modestly curtail the immense waste caused by other inefficient social policies, and it's mild financial damage control at best.

On the other hand, you just don't deny medical care to a group of people, especially when a high share of them have mental and physical illnesses. It may be economically expedient from a business point of view, but it's not moral, not Christian, and ultimately, detrimental to society at large. It's exactly because the health-care and insurance system is now being designed and operated as if it were a mere for-profit business as opposed to a fundamentally significant aspect of society, that it has reached its disastrous current predicament.

Meanwhile, such a policy would also require proper enforcement and oversight. Because otherwise there'd be a risk of teenagers getting a free party pad at the taxpayer's expense by just calling the government and claiming they're homeless with a heroin addiction and asking for a free apartment, while remaining totally clean and living in their parents' house, and then renting out their free apartment to friends and making money out of it.

I'm sure those among our more conservative pals who are somewhat prone to hyperbolic talking-point FOX-style vomiting would imminently argue that there's no stopping at merely giving apartments for free, and what's next is free food, free cars, free drugs, and, - gasp! - even free health-care and education! (OMGs and FFSs are in order). And, ya know, other such un-American stuff. (Well, free guns are probably a completely different story).

There's also the more rational counter-point to such a proposal, in that the more the root problem remains hidden from the public, the more it'll be ignored and its real solution delayed. We all know the reasoning behind the opposition to entitlement programs like these: they tend to create a culture of dependency, remove any incentive for personal development, hide away a whole segment of society in crappy, federally funded subdivisions and make it harder for society to garner support for addressing the root cause of these people's homelessness.

That said, the matter is not so black-and-white as some might be trying to portray it. Some homeless people are stable enough to live in a home without screwing up. All they need is a chance. They should be identified and given housing ASAP, so they could kick off from a way better position and possibly improve their life. Others need supervision. The most successful programs are the ones that have services AND monitoring. Not saying that there should necessarily be requirements to homeless people to become clean and sober before getting housing, as there's ample evidence suggesting that having a home in fact does make it far more likely that an addict would look after the place and clean up.

Personally, I don't support giving anyone free housing indefinitely, i.e. for life. Ultimately, the goal of this policy should be to stabilize the homeless so they could get a job, or at least social security, and pay for their housing within a certain period, eventually. That should be the whole idea of welfare: to provide a security net so that peope don't crash down on the ground; and then offer a launching pad from which people could start anew on their own, with their own efforts. The more people are helped that way, the better for society overall, no?

Social programs like these are not harmful per se - the ones that are wasteful and promote abuse of the system are the truly problematic ones. Sadly, those are not going away any time soon, because as long as there are politicians trying to buy votes, and perpetuate social problems for the sake of continuously exploiting them without finding a solution, to justify a few more votes on each election cycle, the problem is not going anywhere.

That said, it sounds like a good idea to see major cities building large living areas with residential quarters of various size depending on their needs, with food warehouses that carry all anyone would need to survive. After all, with what's being wasted on excessive programs of incredibly low efficacy, we could provide much better for those who truly need help.

Plus, the other thing that this needs to be coupled with, is rehabilitation. In America, drug problems are also swept under the rug by mostly jailing humongous swaths of people for petty crimes, stuffing the bloated jail system with cheap labor, again all at the taxpayer's back and for the profit of the private companies operating those jails. And let's face it, a large part of the problem with the homeless is directly intertwined with the problem of drug addiction.

[identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)
When I worked in Vancouver's downtown, I used to give change and small bills to the homeless and I had a friend tell me "You shouldn't, they'll probably just use it to buy drugs." Now mind you, these were older and fairly rough looking people that I saw enough to know this wasn't a weekend getaway for them and my response was "Well, if I was sleeping on the streets, I'd want something to take the edge off too."

Drug problems go hand in hand with hopelessness. If people had something productive to do, to build towards, we'd have less of those problems.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
In the US and in other places (e.g. like London) there is a worrying trend for installing spikes on streets to deter homeless people from seeking shelter, never mind anyone else. A Vancouver organization is using city benches to promote compassion and offer assistance to homeless.

Vancouver is so much more humane.

Image

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2014-07-08 12:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Related: There's a charity here making street swags (http://www.streetswags.org). Essentially an all in one shelter/bed that rolls up small enough to carry around so you don't have to stash it/leave it during the day (or carry all your stuff around in a big bundle).

[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Food for thought, particularly to our conservative "pals": can charities provide for all poor/homeless people? Can people's mercy be entirely relied upon to maintain a system of relatively adequate and sustainable safety net? Does the principle "a society is judged by the way it treats its weakest" mean anything to our conservative "pals"?

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
The real strength of societies is in the bonds forged between it's smallest components, people themselves.

The real value of charity, individual charity, is the human connection made between the giver and those given to. Seeing the need in our daily lives and addressing it as we can, person to person. Applying for aid and getting aid from programs, and even at times, impersonal representation from institutional charities is nice, but it's often a case of a band-aid over an infected wound. It's not the source of a lasting solution, or even the basis for it.

If we want societies that matter, that actually function like strong societies where these ills are minimized (as well as the tangential issues that arise around them), you need neighbors that look out for one another personally, and often enough, that means giving freely and directly.

That's a cultural issue. It's answer is not conservative or progressive (i.e. It's not the 'fault' of the poor or homeless nor the lack of instituting just the right program).

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
The real strength of societies is in the bonds forged between it's smallest components, people themselves.

Likewise if we're going with amorphisms : then any society's values are reflected on the macro level by it's governmental policies, either federal, state and local.

That's a cultural issue. It's answer is not conservative or progressive (i.e. It's not the 'fault' of the poor or homeless nor the lack of instituting just the right program).

Bragging rights goes to Western European countries that with their "cultural" background and governmental policies which gives them a much lower homelessness rate (e.g. the United States has about 3.5 million, Western Europe counts 6,500).


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[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Charity doesn't do that. It creates a class distinction between the people who have enough to give and those who depend on those people.

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[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 06:32 am (UTC)(link)
That still doesn't provide viable solutions to a problem as rampant as poverty and homelessness.

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[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
We have to ask ourselves a question: Is homelessness a causeor is it an effect?

If homelessness is the cause of the problem, then giving people a leg up to shelter and providing them services to allow them to settle and establish a orderly life might make sense. At least in theory. I think it would be incredibly hard since so much of what is being proposed strikes me as intrusive and paternalistic, necessarily so in many cases, but nevertheless that kind nanny state is a tough sell to people who likely have serious issues with authority and discipline.

If homelessness is an effect of some other set of dysfunctions (drugs/alcohol and mental illness being the two main vectors that come to mind), then I'm not sure the project, as outlined, would do much to solve the problem. People with serious mental illnesses don't need a "cost saving solution," they need medical and psychological intervention, treatment and in-patient, custodial services. Possibly indefinitely. In any case, the answer to their problem isn't less spending, it is more spending. But that spending is also tied to a loss of freedom, and to many people that is a cure which is worse than the disease. To what extent that is true is a debatable question.

[identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Once again, policraticus goes straight for the center of mass.

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[identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 09:26 pm (UTC)(link)
It's fascinating to observe time and time again how like-minded people suck each other off stroke each other's ego at every corner.

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[identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Cause or effect of what? This post is nonsensical.

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[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 11:25 pm (UTC)(link)
You have to read past the first line. I know that can be hard when your knee is jerking like it's on a string connected directly to Nancy Pelosi's wattle.
Edited 2014-07-07 23:26 (UTC)

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[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2014-07-08 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I think homelessness tends to be an effect of mental illness (drugs/alcohol usually an effect of the mental illness too). You can't really fix many of the mental illnesses that are at the root of homelessness (schizophrenia is a big one), all you can do is mitigate the consequences. Sure you can medicate, but I would argue that's only mitigating an effect, not treating the cause. However, to medicate, you need structures in place to diagnose and deliver, and it's much easier to do this if you know where the person is.

I feel like you're trying to make the cause/effect thing here a binary thing, and it isn't, they're cyclical and interconnected. The mental illness leads to the drugs leads to the homelessness leads to the mental illness leads to the homelessness leads to the drugs. If we can agree that intervening is worthwhile (we don't have to, some people think the best thing to do is let people die on the street), then we have to look at the most effective way of doing so. Which one of these things can we get in to and break the cycle? Can we get in to the mental illness? Not if you can't treat it, which you can't do if someone isn't stable enough to stay on a treatment plan. Can you get in on the drugs? Not if you don't remove the triggers for the drug use (you're not going to get sober whilst on the streets, what would be the point?). Can you get in on the homelessness? Apparently this programme is finding that you can. It had been my understanding that for many homeless the problem isn't so much getting a house as keeping a house; something you and I take for granted, but isn't so simple for everyone. Although, there are *a lot* more "economic homeless" (people who can't afford houses) in the US (contrasted with the "chronic homeless", or those who can't keep a house, which is what you see more of in the rest of the developed world).

[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2014-07-08 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you are right, homelessness is generally an effect of some other dysfunction. Otherwise healthy people just being homeless because they can't find a place to stay is a small population in a temporary situation that, in general, fixes itself. That is why I focused more on the problems of drug abuse and mental illness which leads to chronic homelessness.

However, it seems to me that the proposal and the rhetoric that often surrounds mental illness casts homelessness itself as the problem that most needs fixing and that if the homeless had homes all would be on the road to recovery. That seems wrong to me. Having a home is a consequence, or an effect, of a person acting in a certain way, cultivating good behavior and virtuous habits like working, saving, planning, etc. For a person or family willing to learn these and demonstrate to the relevant agencies that they are working toward mastering them, I think the proposal is not without merit.

We also agree that people who are mentally ill or addicted to drugs do not need homes as much as they need treatment both medical and psychological. The man in the depths of heroin addiction or the woman tormented by schizophrenia both need shelter and security. But how do you get them this in a way that isn't merely a transient moment of calm which quickly devolves back into homelessness? That is what the OP seems like to me. Unless we are willing to return to the days when a person could be involuntarily committed to a mental or medical institution and unless we are willing to generously fund those institutions I don't think we will seriously address the problem of the chronically homeless. There is the rub. Because that solution has dual problems for almost everyone on the political spectrum: 1.) The infringement on civil liberties and the danger of wrongful commitment or abuse. 2.) The enormous cost of these facilities and the inevitable failures of management and bureaucracy.

Those two issues cemented a right/left consensus in the 1980's that led to the closing of many state run hospitals (many of which were hell-holes) and the reform of commitment laws (some of which were abusive). While I think justice was well served in many of theses cases, nevertheless the consequences have been less than ideal.

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[identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com 2014-07-09 10:58 am (UTC)(link)
It's correlated with poverty, both as a cause and as an effect. Once you eliminate homelessness, you've basically eliminated poverty, and once poverty is mostly eradicated then crime will be mostly non-existent. I'm not saying there aren't rich/career criminals, but 99% of the incarcerated population is of the "poor and desperate" kind. The cost of poverty is just too high on society, not only in fighting "crime" (which most often is not a directed offense against people but a transgression against rules, morals or laws), but also in providing basic services to homeless people and integrating them into some kind of active participation, whether it's work or whatever can help them rehabilitate. This whole excuse about state intrusiveness sounds like evasive BS to me, as private corporations can and should handle social housing. There is no intelligible choice but to have minimum standards of survival, education and heatlhcare for everyone, paid by everyone. Otherwise you have a big police organization chasing "illegal" behaviour which wouldn't even be occurring if the minimum standards were in place. Why not invest in the proper infrastructure for the poor instead of just reacting when they transgress the penal code? Just look at statistics correlating crime and homelessness and see what the costs are for providing proper social housing versus the costs of vigilance, crime and incarceration.

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[identity profile] dziga123.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
What about giving apartments for working poor with families, first? At least they work, they care about their children, they are not drug addicts and they are law abiding citizens. Shouldn't society, on taxpayers money, reward such behavior in the first place?
My favorite part:
"The state is giving away apartments, no strings attached. In 2005, Utah calculated the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for an average homeless person was $16,670, while the cost of providing an apartment and social worker would be $11,000. Each participant works with a caseworker to become self-sufficient, but if they fail, they still get to keep their apartment".
Homeless will still go to ER, because they have apartments, not medical insurance and still go to jail because they still be committing drug related crimes, apartments or not.
So with this program "each participant" will cost taxpayers not 16,670, but 27,670.
Great "money saving" idea!
Let's face it: homeless are either mentally ill or drug addicts or both, at least in the United States. They are getting help from government and charities. They get free food, free shelter, free medical care and, yes, free drugs.
I don't want live in the country where unfortunate and pitiful denied help. But let's not overplay this.
Edited 2014-07-06 22:50 (UTC)

[identity profile] paft.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
d: What about giving apartments for working poor with families, first? At least they work, they care about their children, they are not drug addicts and they are law abiding citizens.

So you assume all of the homeless have no families (untrue. Quite a few families are homeless) don't work (also untrue) don't care about their children (untrue) and are criminals (also untrue.)

d: Let's face it: homeless are either mentally ill or drug addicts or both, at least in the United States.

It's stupid to assume this.

d: They get free food, free shelter, free medical care and, yes, free drugs.

What planet are you living on?


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[identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
"Homeless will still go to ER, because they have apartments, not medical insurance and still go to jail because they still be committing drug related crimes, apartments or not.
So with this program "each participant" will cost taxpayers not 16,670, but 27,670."

This is really the key point. There are quite a few homeless people who are alcoholics or drug addicts, quite a few who are mentally ill, and a whole bunch that are both. I'd suspect that a lot of those emergency room visits are for side effects from drug use (abscesses and ODs from heroin and numerous problems from alcohol abuse). These won't stop unless the person stops abusing substances. They may spend less time in jail, but then this could be accomplished if we just stop arresting drug users... unless/until they become violent.

I'm sure that having a home and some stability will make someone more successful in kicking their habit, but it seems this program assumes that treatment will always be successful for someone with a home and always fail for someone who doesn't.

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[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:41 am (UTC)(link)
What countries give apartments to homeless people?

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[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
Many EU countries are considered to have among the most socially advanced homeless support policies in the world. Among developing nations, countries such as Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Indonesia, Senegal, Singapore and Tunisia are praised for their efforts. In Brazil for example, cities such as Fortaleza, Recife, Porto Allegre, Santo Andre, and several others are considered to have quite effective housing programs. And in post-apartheid South Africa, much progress has been made in making housing policies more favorable to the poor.

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[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - 2014-07-07 11:49 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - 2014-07-07 12:05 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 07:43 am (UTC)(link)
Civilized ones, I presume.

Sometimes even the not-so-civilized. Mine certainly does, as backwater of a place as it may be. Example:

Here's where hundreds of Roma used to live in the suburbs of my town:

Image

Here's where many of them live now:

Image

And it was all granted by the municipality for free. Most of those people have jobs now, and are able to pay their utility bills.

And mind you, this is just some shitplace of a country at the ass of geography.
Edited 2014-07-07 07:44 (UTC)

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[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - 2014-07-07 11:50 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - 2014-07-07 12:12 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - 2014-07-07 13:31 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com 2014-07-09 11:07 am (UTC)(link)
The city I've lived in for 11 years now has over 1 million inhabitants in the urban area and I've never seen or heard of a homeless resident. I'd say at a minimum one third of all urban housing is provisioned for social (low income or no income). There are also many known squats but not as many as in latin american countries. As a sidenote, you would find that house ownership is at a low percentage in cities in Western Europe, and much much higher in southern and eastern EU, where there are hardly any housing services provided for the poor. The western policy is to ensure housing first, and to screw the property owners second. ;-)

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[identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - 2014-07-09 12:06 (UTC) - Expand

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