[identity profile] paft.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
The author responds to a comment on her blogpost Why I Make Terrible Decisions:

I would like to understand what you are really angry about. Is it that I am poor and insufficiently servile about it? Is it that you legitimately think that you are somehow morally superior? Is it that I dared to write my thoughts down and someone forced you to read them? Is it that you never spend fifty dollars a month on something that could be used elsewhere, and you are extra judgey about it because it is the thing you have to be judgey about? Is it that you are an antismoking warrior and doing the world A Service by wishing ill on random Internet bloggers? Is it that you are uncomfortable with the idea that even if I have no money I am allowed to sometimes complain about life? How rich do I have to be before I am allowed to have objections to the current class system? What amount of money do you think gives me the right to be human?


More and more, offline and on, I’ve been seeing the “a feature, not a bug” argument about the increasing income disparity between the very rich and the rest of us. It’s an argument best summarized as, “Forget the poor. They’re losers.” Salon has an acid piece up about Tyler Cowen and the upcoming “hyper-meritocracy,” which includes some of the euphemisms people like Cowen love to use about the fate of the non-wealthy in the brave new world he’s so excited about. “Tough trade-offs,” and “common sense” for the rationale (which I’ve encountered here) that since we can’t help every single poor person, we shouldn’t help any of them.

Along with this blithe rejection of an increasingly large portion of the human race is a tendency to vilify the poor. After all, if one is going to relegate all these people to a life of hunger, illness, and exhaustion, it’s important to convince oneself that they deserve it.



A piece by a blogger called killermartinis is a welcome antidote to the Friedmans and the Cowens of this world. Yes, the author says, poor people often make bad decisions. Here’s why. Here’s what it’s like to be poor.

I know how to cook. I had to take Home Ec to graduate high school. Most people on my level didn't. Broccoli is intimidating. You have to have a working stove, and pots, and spices, and you'll have to do the dishes no matter how tired you are or they'll attract bugs. It is a huge new skill for a lot of people. That's not great, but it's true. And if you fuck it up, you could make your family sick. We have learned not to try too hard to be middle-class. It never works out well and always makes you feel worse for having tried and failed yet again. Better not to try. It makes more sense to get food that you know will be palatable and cheap and that keeps well. Junk food is a pleasure that we are allowed to have; why would we give that up? We have very few of them.


And her reaction, posted at the beginning of this OP, to the inevitable hostile commenter reacting to the fact that she (horrors!) smokes cigarettes, is as worthwhile a read as the article.

What she (and, inadvertently, the commenter) highlights is the assumption that a poor person who complains about being poor is speaking out of turn. A poor person should be ashamed of being poor, to the point of giving up even those small pleasures they can afford, and should not talk back to his or her literal wealthy “superiors” – who, if the poor person is really, really good, might toss a few nice leftovers into a donation box. The word “uppity” is rarely used, but it’s pretty similar to the affluent white attitude towards blacks that I remember from the American south of my childhood, which often involved a definition of “good” that required a staggering level of self-abnegation. A passage from Sinclair Lewis’ satiric novel about a fascist takeover in the US, It Can’t Happen Here, sums it up:

“In order…to give the most sympathetic aid possible to all Negroes who comprehend their proper and valuable place in society, all such colored persons, male or female, as can prove that they have devoted not less than forty-five years to such suitable tasks as domestic service, agricultural labor, and common labor in industries, shall at the age of sixty-five be permitted to appear before a special Board, composed entirely of white persons, and upon proof that while employed they have never been idle except through sickness, they shall be recommended for pensions…”

The awful part is that this seems generous compared to the current right wing libertarian attitude towards the poor.

*

(no subject)

Date: 22/11/13 18:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Could you use lj cut please? Thanks in advance.

(no subject)

Date: 22/11/13 18:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I threw my iPad down in exasperation at broccoli is intimidating.

Query: Are people poor because they find broccoli intimidating or do they find broccoli intimidating because they are poor?

Follow up: What did poor people eat before the advent of fast food? Surely there were few people poorer than my father's family during the Depression and yet my grandparents were not only able to cook broccoli they were able to grow it.

For the record: I am not a fan of meritocracy. It is built on they lie that we are all meritorious. We are not. No one would like it if they got what they really deserved.

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Date: 23/11/13 06:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
How does one prepare broccoli wrong in such a way that people get sick? And has this person never been to a grocery store? You can buy frozen broccoli with cheese sauce or butter, you just heat it in the microwave.

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Date: 23/11/13 01:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
Wasn't it George H. W. Bush who famously said, "I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli"? The weight of broccoli falls heaviest on the poor.

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Date: 23/11/13 01:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Qu'ils mangent de la chou-fleur?

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Date: 23/11/13 04:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
I love broccoli, and even brussels sprouts. Spinach and lima beans on the other hand...

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Date: 23/11/13 13:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
I always liked broccoli and never understood why it got such a bad rap. I never had Brussels sprouts when I was young, but only heard about it as vague rumours of dread from other children; I like them now, though I prefer baked to boiled. But, I am with you on the spinach and lima beans.

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Date: 23/11/13 13:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
Hmm, I like spinach, but do not like lima beans or brussel sprouts. But yes, I like broccoli.

Looks like we need someone who likes broccoli and lima beans.

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Date: 25/11/13 02:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
When it's cooked right, broccoli is great. My oldest son, when he was three, threw a tantrum in a grocery store demanding that we buy broccoli for dinner that night. I got some really weird looks.

I've also had to use the line "no more broccoli until you finish your French fries."

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Date: 24/11/13 13:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com
what about lentils? you like? they are good for the complexion after all :)

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Date: 24/11/13 20:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
I do (altho at my age I'm not too worried about my complexion, it is what it is)

Strangely enough I never had lentils (that I recall) until I had a Peruvian (and then an Indian d-i-l) who fixed them often.

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Date: 22/11/13 20:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dexeron.livejournal.com
Here's a link that starts off with one of those tired memes you reference, about the poor buying things they don't "deserve," and turns it around on its head a bit. I think it's good evidence that before we judge others, we should maybe just not.

http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/66916915720/seananmcguire-cumbersome-cucumber

There's a great quote on this: "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." -- Herman Melville

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Date: 23/11/13 01:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
"The awful part is that this seems generous compared to the current right wing libertarian attitude towards the poor."

I am truly at a loss how this is much different than this: "Understand the single most defining characteristic of a liberal or a leftist is that they are lazy. They do not want to work. They do not want to strive. They want an easy and paid-for life as much as possible."....which was from a link, to which you responded by taking it personal, giving personal family info ending with: "Do explain what you know about them that warrants this insult."

Rather than list all my righteous attributes and those of my family who are pretty much mostly right wing libertarians (or worse yet, some are right wing Christian Fundamentalists) I'll just ask, do you think there is a difference?

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Date: 23/11/13 04:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
ALL right wing libertarians???? Who knew.

(would given quotes from lazy liberals make my point?)

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Date: 23/11/13 23:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
Well I thought I did, but you seem to attributing hatred and/or disdain as ideological beliefs rather than personal attributes.

Altho, come to think of it, I'm not sure what attitudes you are attributing .current right wing libertarians as having to the poor.
Actually that was quite clever, letting us fill in the blanks. It gives you a degree of separation. Bravo!

(no subject)

Date: 23/11/13 16:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com
Libertarianism often hinges philosophically on a necessary equivocation of what is the case as what ought be the case. In so far as libertarians are viewing this issue as libertarians, yes pretty much all of them think that way. The same cannot be said of liberals being lazy.

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Date: 23/11/13 23:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
*sigh* Since there seems to be a great deal of argument on what Libertarians believe (amongst themselves) I'm not sure you can stick them in an all encompassing group (which I think we agree on, if I parsed you correctly...but then you go and put them in a group) However, paft's original statement was right wing libertarian (notice the small l). Now either the difference was a nuance not intended, sloppiness or ignorance, I can't say, however I do interpret it differently* as I consider myself right wing with a basic libertarian philosophy.

The original statement I replied to was subsequently dismissed as an opinion (which was backtracking, but oh well). My point (I'm not sure any more since this getting pretty convoluted) was to the effect that the since the statement "all liberals are lazy" is demonstrably false, it is obviously hyperbole, and taking it personal AND personalizing it is done so as an excuse to attack...with more hyperbole. Heck even you qualified your agreement with "pretty much all" (
which may or may not be true depending if we are talking about a subset of Libertarians or libertarian leaning right wingers)

*since my (appropriated) motto has always been clarity is preferable to agreement, let it be stated that was my goal in this rather wordy comment.

(no subject)

Date: 24/11/13 13:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com
- see - - see how there is some amount of danger/toxicity in ascribing ourselves (and others) labels of any kind . . siding with this political party or that is likewise just as risky.

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From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 24/11/13 21:09 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 24/11/13 12:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com
with the dissipation of our US middle-class, I often wonder how soon will it be before we are mimicking once-upon-a-time-Russia and begin to advocate for a more humanistic (read socialistic) means of living? People here in the USA are very socialistic when it comes to thoughts on caring for the old/elderly/retired (e.g. Medicare services). How long before those attitudes seep into other facets of life and community? I know no one to date who can forecast that . . . too many variable to account for if you ask me.

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