[identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Long story short, Locus Magazine has found itself in a bit of a kerfuffle over one of it's April 1st pranks. They issued a false press releases announcing that, in the interests of inclusiveness, all guests and attendees of a feminist science fiction convention (WisCon) would be required to wear Burqas. As one can imagine people complained that the announcement was offensive to Muslims, anti-Feminist, and not particularly funny. As such it has since been taken down and replaced with an apology.

The statement's original author, Lawrence Person, retaliated by posting about the controversy and a copy of the original statement in his own blog. Regardless of one's opinion on the above there's something that cropped up in the comment section that I found interesting.

A commenter identifying herself as Barbara posted the following...

I think that I can speak for all women when I say that this very important because we cannot offend science fiction fans of other religions. The right to free speech is irrelevant to women’s rights and freedom of religion. People need to understand that being offended is a really big deal and that we should be able to make you not offend us. And science fiction cannot be sexist or minority-phobic either. This is what it is. Period.

Emphasis mine.

Now I don't know if Barbara is being serious or satirical but her comment highlighted something that has always bothered me. The belief that one has a "right" to not be offended requires one to also believe in the right to force one's ideology on another. It is, by nature, anathema to the traditional interpretation of the 1st Amendment and the whole idea of freedom of speech / religion in general. Furthermore, there seems to be a growing trend in American politics to use conspicuous displays of outrage and offense as a form of political signalling raising the obvious question of, how does one avoid offending someone who is actively looking for something to be offended about?

The simple answer is that you can't.

Admittedly this is not a "Talking Point" so much as it is a rhetorical tactic but it still ranks among the dark arts and as such it's practitioners should be called out. ;)

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/13 22:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
The mirror of this is the people who whine when they are called out on being offensive that they are being "oppressed" or "silenced". People calling you out on being a jerk is simply more speech.

Free speech is free of government interference, but it is not free of social consequences.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com
Your mirror example depends on if the person/people actually were silenced/oppressed because they exercised their right to free speech. That does happen, you know. And I think that's worse because "silencing" people is a form of oppression and a way to "make" a discussion or argument go the way those "in control" want it to go.

If anyone with a differing opinion is silenced, then it looks like no one has a different opinion and that those few at the top who play with the marionette strings hold "the majority" opinion, when really all they hold is the strings (which is quite a lot of power to have, and it often goes unchecked).

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:10 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 20:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 01:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 15:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 15:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 15:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 19:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 20:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 09:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
There's a stark difference between having a dialogue and the way internet social justice warriors are doing their thing, though. The Tumblrfication of the social dialogue is hurting, not helping, the causes in question.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 03:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 03:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 09:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 16:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 18:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 20:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 23:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 01:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 07:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 14:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 19:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 02:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 14:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 04:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 17:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 00:37 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 03:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 12:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 09:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 14:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 18:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 16:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 21:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 18:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 16:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 13/4/13 12:34 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 14:22 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 19:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 04:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 10:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 12:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 02:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 04:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 00:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 01:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] oslo.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 02:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 05:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 10:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dexeron.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 14:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 21:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 23:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 05:23 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:50 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 10:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 20:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 05:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 21:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 08:37 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 09:37 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 00:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 14/4/13 18:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 14:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 20:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 06:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Exactly. This edge cuts both ways. If one expects to be able to speak freely, they shouldn't expect to not be called out on what they speak.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/13 23:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
So what should be done about this Barbara person?

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 07:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
[anti-feminist troll-mode on] Find her a dude. [anti-feminist troll-mode off]

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 17:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com
Yeah, Barbara's statement is a bit scary.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
My experience has been that it's the people who most vehemently offend the right to offend others who are the first to cry foul when it's their sacred oxes being gored. The right to offend people is always something people insist applies to other beliefs, not their own. For that matter the people who most loudly insist on this also tend to be rather tame in their willingness to proclaim offensive beliefs. It's not really the cutting edge of being offensive to say un-PC words anymore, so if people think that saying said words qualifies them for that, so much the better. They can subsist in the fringes of hipsterism and leave politics to the adults.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 07:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com
I guess I'm lucky because I haven't come across a lot of people that just need to offend people or need to defend their "right to offend." Can you say who some of these people are? My experience is that in most cases offense is unintentional even if the person meant the point they were trying to get across, etc.

There are some sinister people who know exactly what they're doing, but they're usually sly enough to not get caught. They never say what they mean. They just hide behind a slew of data and harmless examples that do the talking for them. Luckily, I haven't come across too many of these types in my life and I'm glad of it.

My personal observation is that, often times, those most involved in politics tend to act the least like adults, but that's just my view.
Edited Date: 9/4/13 07:10 (UTC)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 08:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 10:22 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 19:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 22:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 07:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
Yeah, good luck with that.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 07:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
I have to wonder something. How much thought have you given to the idea that it's possible you're conflating being offended and stating such, with the desire to legally compel others to stop the offending language. The emboldened quote in the OP certainly seems to imply that people need to be made to not offend. Certainly some formal restraint is being suggested. But a policy of formal restraint seems substantially different from just one's capacity for being offended.

At the same time, are the people you're citing here, the ones presumably who cry foul when others offend them, after standing up for their right to say things which may offend others, equally making it clear that what they would seek is to similarly have the power to make others not offend, in the words of the commenter in the OP?

Is it not a difference of some substance to say that a person can be offended by something somebody says while still supporting the ability of others to offend? Why would that seemingly be a contradiction in your eyes?

Not saying it never happens that people would exist who would use compulsion for legal restraints while crying out against such equal restraint against themselves, but this level of analysis does not seem to be your focus or intent.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 12:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
The word 'offended' has lost its meaning - for many I suspect, but definitely for me. Not that there aren't genuine cases of someones words or actions hurting the feelings of others - but they seem to be the exceptions, overshadowed by the rules, which are people who just need to toughen up a little.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
This person can easily ensure that someone does not offend her by not reading about or listening to or talking with people who don't conform to her narrow worldview. So, unless people are beaming messages into her head, she really has nothing to complain about.
For what it's worth, I don't think that she was being satirical. A lot people like her are very hostile to fundamental rights and freedons, especially freedom of speech, probably the most important of them.
Anyway, I suspect that most of the complaints weren't from muslims or science fiction fans, but from cranky busybodies who had probably never heard about Locus Magazine before this came up.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 01:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
A lot people like her are very hostile to fundamental rights and freedons

And what would you call this generalized group of people?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 03:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 04:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 22:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 00:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 00:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 00:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oslo.livejournal.com
The belief that one has a "right" to not be offended requires one to also believe in the right to force one's ideology on another.

I don't think this follows. Please explain how it does.

Further, even if it did follow, it would also have to follow that the belief in a "right to offend others" must also be paired with a "right to force one's ideology on another." A similar imposition of values occurs, on this view, when a person is expected to keep silent, whether that silence is out of respect for other people's sensitivities or it's a silence subjected to the freely-dispensed offensive speech of others.

It is, by nature, anathema to the traditional interpretation of the 1st Amendment and the whole idea of freedom of speech / religion in general.

I don't think so, but we have to be clear about what we're talking about.

I would distinguish between speech that is incidentally offensive to some of its hearers and speech whose purpose is to offend others. I think it's probably right to say that incidentally offensive speech generally falls within what we normally think of as the "core" of the First Amendment's protection. That kind of speech, after all, arguably could include just about anything.

But intentionally offensive speech is something different. It is speech designed to harm, and usually it's designed to harm certain people. It's not "anathema" to the "traditional interpretation" (which one?) of the First Amendment to suggest that people might have a right not to be subjected to intentionally harmful speech, any more than it is "anathema" to the Second Amendment to suggest that I have the right not to be subjected to the reckless misuse of a firearm. Think about it this way: if the First Amendment were crafted just to protect intentionally offensive speech, how much sense would it make, as a key prop for our democracy? How much of its purpose would be undermined by crafting it that way?

That's not to say - and I know that saying this will prove futile - that I think the First Amendment should be understood to stand for a particular legal principle where certain kinds of laws banning offensive speech are okay. On this point, we should take care to distinguish between the First Amendment as a way of referring to certain moral or philosophical rights we can discuss in the abstract and as a legal mechanism by which those rights are protected. The moral strength of the First Amendment may be consistent with a view on our rights, but that would not compel us to take a corresponding view as to the First Amendment's actual, legal reach - that's a separate kind of question.

Furthermore, there seems to be a growing trend in American politics to use conspicuous displays of outrage and offense as a form of political signalling raising the obvious question of, how does one avoid offending someone who is actively looking for something to be offended about?

You're being exceedingly vague here, so I don't know whose actions I'm supposed to be defending or attacking. But I will say it is a bit of a bad excuse to cite the First Amendment as an reason not to engage in decent, civil behavior with one another.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 16:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 17:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 17:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 17:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 20:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 22:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 01:34 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 03:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 05:34 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 13/4/13 00:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 13/4/13 01:10 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 16:23 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 23:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 16/4/13 11:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 17/4/13 05:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 09:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 12:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 12:42 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 16:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 23:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 07:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 06:22 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 15/4/13 20:47 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 01:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com
The burqa joke reminds me that, with the recent Target uproar, I secretly hoped the solution was going to be that all sizes of those dresses would be labeled "Manatee Gray."

I find the sentence before the sentence you highlighted to also be alarming: "The right to free speech is irrelevant to women’s rights and freedom of religion."

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 01:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com
paft.

perfect example.

so frustrating when one only agrees 98% on an issue, but the semantic differences of the 2% is a 'deal killer'.

Sometimes, people just don't listen, or ignore the entire premise of the comment/position/point and focus on random non sequiturs.

Been that way since 1996. I doubt if will ever change. Something is dividing us and we seem to like it that way, frustrations aside.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 02:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
Paft has never said that she wants to be able to make someone not offend her. There's a difference between saying "that's offensive" and "you are not allowed to say that."

You've got a hard-on for her lately, and frankly, it doesn't reflect well.
Edited Date: 9/4/13 02:49 (UTC)

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 03:35 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 04:39 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] american-geist.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 02:57 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 03:36 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] american-geist.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 04:05 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:18 (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 06:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 16:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com
The belief that one has a "right" to not be offended requires one to also believe in the right to force one's ideology on another. It is, by nature, anathema to the traditional interpretation of the 1st Amendment and the whole idea of freedom of speech / religion in general.

What traditional interpretation is that?

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/13 22:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Freedom of speech is only for those mature (i.e. white, Christian, and cisgender male) enough to have it and to be ruthlessly denied with fire and sword if needs be to those who aren't.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com - Date: 9/4/13 22:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lantean-breeze.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 10:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 10/4/13 03:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brother-dour.livejournal.com
The sci-fi and superhero genres have always been very misogynistic, in all fairness. Hell, comic books gave us both the Mary Sue and Women in Refrigerators.

The sad part is- mainstream comic books still don't get it.

(no subject)

Date: 10/4/13 11:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
I find it hard to imagine what fully feminism-compliant science fiction would look like. The two seem almost polar opposites, and the same could be said for comics.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 14:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] brother-dour.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 18:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 01:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/13 14:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 15:58 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 15:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 11/4/13 08:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] brother-dour.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/13 01:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 11/4/13 00:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
There ought to be a law that makes it a punishable crime for comedians to not be funny. After all, humour, like offence, is an objective quality that we all understand and can apply.

(no subject)

Date: 11/4/13 06:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
If you were aiming for DQ...

...you succeeded! :-)
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 1/5/13 23:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 11/4/13 17:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
This reminds me of anti-blasphemy laws. I find it ironic that deities need to have humans around to enforce injunctions against insulting them. This makes the advocates of blasphemy laws somewhat blasphemous. After all, they make it seem that their deities are impotent.

Johan Galtung has some interesting observations on blasphemy in this interview:

(no subject)

Date: 14/4/13 03:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vehemencet-t.livejournal.com
I think this illustrates well the benefit of the human act of forming affinities--i.e. forming groups not based on forced "mass societies" but with those of like mind, complimentary values/principles (and it probably should be recognized that those are all arbitrary and chosen by each individual person, there is no universal justification for any one set tbh, though the social consequences may seem more or less beneficial for as many as possibly concerned) and a similar (or at least able to cooperate) local, social vision.

Also a good place to pimp out the "Freedom Quiz" once again. Basically the idea is that most people who claim to support Freedom of Speech (or of Religion) are, in fact, just "zealots" of one kind or another who only believe in such freedoms for themselves (seemingly by their contradictory/hypocritical actions). They may claim to believe in freedom, but when it comes down to it, they really can't tolerate opposing views, alternative lifestyles or religions, and they secretly support the idea of "thought crimes" and would use the coercion of legislation to limit, outlaw or repress as much as possible (to me, the equivalent of sticking a gun to someone's head and demanding something--in this case the "gun of state and police authority").

If you score anything less than 12, then, the argument goes, you do not believe in freedom. And I tend to agree. If I made any intellectual/fallacious/critical errors please let me know, of course.

SO here goes, yes or no (or a third option?) (and remember all of these things come with obvious and natural (or sometimes unnatural?) SOCIAL consequences--but I am talking about the FREEDOM to DO them):

1) Do you believe members of the public should be able to march on a government power center, carrying protest signs, blocking traffic and shouting anything they want, without being tear-gassed, tasered or arrested? Do you believe they have the individual right to "defend themselves" against such tactics?

2) Do you believe it is acceptable for parents to question the medical justification behind mandatory vaccination policies and, with their child's consent, refuse vaccination for themselves (you might argue its somehow an imposition on the freedom of others they come into contact with to stay healthy because they will be more prone to get sick, but is that a valid argument?)?

3) Do you believe historians should have the right to, whether in print, audio, media, speech etc. question the official explanation of some traumatic historical event like the 9/11 attacks, even if their claims seem completely ridiculous to most like their denial of the Holocaust?

4) Do you believe observers should have the right to question the legitimacy or legality of, for example, Israel's current military attacks on its neighbors?

5) Do you fully support someone's right to pledge their religious beliefs to the Church of Scientology, or to be an Athiest, or a Satanist, Pagan, Thelemite Magician, Druid, or an Evangelical Christian or to believe in some "weird" religion other than your own, and not just believe it, but *practice it* (different religions require different things from their followers--some, like ancient Judaism, might require animal sacrifices, where others, like modern Christianity usually require (according to their Bible) attempting to go out and share their beliefs with others to convert them? Perhaps the neopagan "Do what thou wilt and it harm none" comes into play here?

6) Do you believe that a man (or woman) should have the right to stand in a public park and speak about his belief that the end of the world is coming, and Jesus will save us all if we only repent our sins or that UFO space brothers are coming from Nibiru to save an enlightened few?

(no subject)

Date: 14/4/13 03:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vehemencet-t.livejournal.com
(Cont)

7) Do you believe that a scientist should be able to voice his opposition to the theory that global warming is caused by humans (or voice his support of that same theory), Tectonic Plate Theory does not adequately explain geological data and that really the Hollow Earth model bears serious, scholarly, investigatio, that Intelligent Design is necessary as a scientific starting point or that UFOs are a still unexplained phenomena that scientists should be able to research and convene on without being relegated to the fringe? Do you believe they should be able to do these things without being ridiculed by their colleagues and BANNED from employment at institutions, being able to give lectures, or given access to print media to voice their theories?

8) Do you believe that the president of a foreign nation (Iran, for example) should have the right to publicly state that, in his view, America is the devil and terrorist attacks against America are punishment from God?

9) Do you believe scientists should be able to question the theory of Darwinian evolution without being ridiculed by fellow scientists? Do you also believe that scientists should be able to question the theory of Intelligent Design in an intellectually-open manner, free from harassment or censure by religious groups in ultra-conservative locales?

10) Do you believe that a person has the right to engage in whatever *Consensual* sexual acts they desire with whomever they wish without public shame, or legislative discrimination (whether homosexuality to polyamory to BDSM to brother-sister incest (hey they are in love right?) to mature student-teacher relationships (after sexual maturity, of course and emphasis on consensual)?

11) Do you believe that a person or group of people have the right to be nude together in public or private, whether for hygiene, pleasure or political statement without arrest?

12) Do you believe that I should be banned from this forum because my comment is WAY TOO LONG :P? Just making sure you were paying attention.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] vehemencet-t.livejournal.com - Date: 15/4/13 21:37 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] vehemencet-t.livejournal.com - Date: 15/4/13 22:18 (UTC) - Expand

Credits & Style Info

Talk Politics.

A place to discuss politics without egomaniacal mods


MONTHLY TOPIC:

Failed States

DAILY QUOTE:
"Someone's selling Greenland now?" (asthfghl)
"Yes get your bids in quick!" (oportet)
"Let me get my Bid Coins and I'll be there in a minute." (asthfghl)

June 2025

M T W T F S S
       1
2 34 5 678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30      
OSZAR »