http://luzribeiro.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2014-07-06 07:37 pm

Homes for the homeless

Much in line with the monthly topic, comes this:

Giving apartments to the chronically homeless can save taxpayer dollars, advocates say

Sometimes you have to spend money in order to save money and get the job done, as any progressive would tell you...

"Giving apartments to homeless people who've been on the streets for years before they've received treatment for drug or alcohol problems or mental illness may not sound like a wise idea. But that's what's being done in cities across America in an approach that targets those who've been homeless the longest and are believed to be at greatest risk of dying. They're people who once might have been viewed as unreachable. But cities and counties affiliated with a movement known as the 100,000 Homes Campaign announced this past week that they had gotten more than 100,000 of these people off the streets and into permanent housing. We first told you about this initiative earlier this year. Local governments and non-profit groups do most of the work. The money comes mostly from existing federal programs and private donations, and there's evidence that this approach saves taxpayers' money."

At least from a first reading, this sounds like a nice response to a serious problem that affects millions of people in America, particularly veterans, pensioners and handicapped. In fact this has already been done by Utah, and has shown some promising results while saving a lot of money:

Utah Solves Homelessness by Giving Away Homes

Utah Is on Track to End Homelessness by 2015 With This One Simple Idea

"The state is giving away apartments, no strings attached. In 2005, Utah calculated the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for an average homeless person was $16,670, while the cost of providing an apartment and social worker would be $11,000. Each participant works with a caseworker to become self-sufficient, but if they fail, they still get to keep their apartment".

Of course, there are caveats. First off, they'd probably need to expand a bit more on what "existing federal programs" exactly means. Because, the way it's formulated right now, it could mean practically anything involving tax money - therefore by definition it's not saving taxpayer money, but is rather spending taxpayer money. On the other hand, if it were all private donations there'd be no controversy, but that's apparently not exactly the case, is it.

Some'd also argue that the only reason it saves money is because entitling penniless people to medical care just for showing up at the ER door is much more expensive in comparison. Homeless are known to abuse that practice because they have nothing else, but the ER providers get to bill the taxpayers for the time they "waste" tending to these people, anyway. In a sense, it's not that housing everyone on taxpayer funds is intrinsically frugal, but it's that the entitlement to infinite health-care in its current form is so stunningly wasteful that housing the homeless only saves money by comparison. In other words, housing the homeless has a potential to modestly curtail the immense waste caused by other inefficient social policies, and it's mild financial damage control at best.

On the other hand, you just don't deny medical care to a group of people, especially when a high share of them have mental and physical illnesses. It may be economically expedient from a business point of view, but it's not moral, not Christian, and ultimately, detrimental to society at large. It's exactly because the health-care and insurance system is now being designed and operated as if it were a mere for-profit business as opposed to a fundamentally significant aspect of society, that it has reached its disastrous current predicament.

Meanwhile, such a policy would also require proper enforcement and oversight. Because otherwise there'd be a risk of teenagers getting a free party pad at the taxpayer's expense by just calling the government and claiming they're homeless with a heroin addiction and asking for a free apartment, while remaining totally clean and living in their parents' house, and then renting out their free apartment to friends and making money out of it.

I'm sure those among our more conservative pals who are somewhat prone to hyperbolic talking-point FOX-style vomiting would imminently argue that there's no stopping at merely giving apartments for free, and what's next is free food, free cars, free drugs, and, - gasp! - even free health-care and education! (OMGs and FFSs are in order). And, ya know, other such un-American stuff. (Well, free guns are probably a completely different story).

There's also the more rational counter-point to such a proposal, in that the more the root problem remains hidden from the public, the more it'll be ignored and its real solution delayed. We all know the reasoning behind the opposition to entitlement programs like these: they tend to create a culture of dependency, remove any incentive for personal development, hide away a whole segment of society in crappy, federally funded subdivisions and make it harder for society to garner support for addressing the root cause of these people's homelessness.

That said, the matter is not so black-and-white as some might be trying to portray it. Some homeless people are stable enough to live in a home without screwing up. All they need is a chance. They should be identified and given housing ASAP, so they could kick off from a way better position and possibly improve their life. Others need supervision. The most successful programs are the ones that have services AND monitoring. Not saying that there should necessarily be requirements to homeless people to become clean and sober before getting housing, as there's ample evidence suggesting that having a home in fact does make it far more likely that an addict would look after the place and clean up.

Personally, I don't support giving anyone free housing indefinitely, i.e. for life. Ultimately, the goal of this policy should be to stabilize the homeless so they could get a job, or at least social security, and pay for their housing within a certain period, eventually. That should be the whole idea of welfare: to provide a security net so that peope don't crash down on the ground; and then offer a launching pad from which people could start anew on their own, with their own efforts. The more people are helped that way, the better for society overall, no?

Social programs like these are not harmful per se - the ones that are wasteful and promote abuse of the system are the truly problematic ones. Sadly, those are not going away any time soon, because as long as there are politicians trying to buy votes, and perpetuate social problems for the sake of continuously exploiting them without finding a solution, to justify a few more votes on each election cycle, the problem is not going anywhere.

That said, it sounds like a good idea to see major cities building large living areas with residential quarters of various size depending on their needs, with food warehouses that carry all anyone would need to survive. After all, with what's being wasted on excessive programs of incredibly low efficacy, we could provide much better for those who truly need help.

Plus, the other thing that this needs to be coupled with, is rehabilitation. In America, drug problems are also swept under the rug by mostly jailing humongous swaths of people for petty crimes, stuffing the bloated jail system with cheap labor, again all at the taxpayer's back and for the profit of the private companies operating those jails. And let's face it, a large part of the problem with the homeless is directly intertwined with the problem of drug addiction.

[identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)
When I worked in Vancouver's downtown, I used to give change and small bills to the homeless and I had a friend tell me "You shouldn't, they'll probably just use it to buy drugs." Now mind you, these were older and fairly rough looking people that I saw enough to know this wasn't a weekend getaway for them and my response was "Well, if I was sleeping on the streets, I'd want something to take the edge off too."

Drug problems go hand in hand with hopelessness. If people had something productive to do, to build towards, we'd have less of those problems.

[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Food for thought, particularly to our conservative "pals": can charities provide for all poor/homeless people? Can people's mercy be entirely relied upon to maintain a system of relatively adequate and sustainable safety net? Does the principle "a society is judged by the way it treats its weakest" mean anything to our conservative "pals"?

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
In the US and in other places (e.g. like London) there is a worrying trend for installing spikes on streets to deter homeless people from seeking shelter, never mind anyone else. A Vancouver organization is using city benches to promote compassion and offer assistance to homeless.

Vancouver is so much more humane.

Image

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
The real strength of societies is in the bonds forged between it's smallest components, people themselves.

The real value of charity, individual charity, is the human connection made between the giver and those given to. Seeing the need in our daily lives and addressing it as we can, person to person. Applying for aid and getting aid from programs, and even at times, impersonal representation from institutional charities is nice, but it's often a case of a band-aid over an infected wound. It's not the source of a lasting solution, or even the basis for it.

If we want societies that matter, that actually function like strong societies where these ills are minimized (as well as the tangential issues that arise around them), you need neighbors that look out for one another personally, and often enough, that means giving freely and directly.

That's a cultural issue. It's answer is not conservative or progressive (i.e. It's not the 'fault' of the poor or homeless nor the lack of instituting just the right program).

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
The real strength of societies is in the bonds forged between it's smallest components, people themselves.

Likewise if we're going with amorphisms : then any society's values are reflected on the macro level by it's governmental policies, either federal, state and local.

That's a cultural issue. It's answer is not conservative or progressive (i.e. It's not the 'fault' of the poor or homeless nor the lack of instituting just the right program).

Bragging rights goes to Western European countries that with their "cultural" background and governmental policies which gives them a much lower homelessness rate (e.g. the United States has about 3.5 million, Western Europe counts 6,500).


[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
We have to ask ourselves a question: Is homelessness a causeor is it an effect?

If homelessness is the cause of the problem, then giving people a leg up to shelter and providing them services to allow them to settle and establish a orderly life might make sense. At least in theory. I think it would be incredibly hard since so much of what is being proposed strikes me as intrusive and paternalistic, necessarily so in many cases, but nevertheless that kind nanny state is a tough sell to people who likely have serious issues with authority and discipline.

If homelessness is an effect of some other set of dysfunctions (drugs/alcohol and mental illness being the two main vectors that come to mind), then I'm not sure the project, as outlined, would do much to solve the problem. People with serious mental illnesses don't need a "cost saving solution," they need medical and psychological intervention, treatment and in-patient, custodial services. Possibly indefinitely. In any case, the answer to their problem isn't less spending, it is more spending. But that spending is also tied to a loss of freedom, and to many people that is a cure which is worse than the disease. To what extent that is true is a debatable question.

[identity profile] dziga123.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
What about giving apartments for working poor with families, first? At least they work, they care about their children, they are not drug addicts and they are law abiding citizens. Shouldn't society, on taxpayers money, reward such behavior in the first place?
My favorite part:
"The state is giving away apartments, no strings attached. In 2005, Utah calculated the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for an average homeless person was $16,670, while the cost of providing an apartment and social worker would be $11,000. Each participant works with a caseworker to become self-sufficient, but if they fail, they still get to keep their apartment".
Homeless will still go to ER, because they have apartments, not medical insurance and still go to jail because they still be committing drug related crimes, apartments or not.
So with this program "each participant" will cost taxpayers not 16,670, but 27,670.
Great "money saving" idea!
Let's face it: homeless are either mentally ill or drug addicts or both, at least in the United States. They are getting help from government and charities. They get free food, free shelter, free medical care and, yes, free drugs.
I don't want live in the country where unfortunate and pitiful denied help. But let's not overplay this.
Edited 2014-07-06 22:50 (UTC)

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:41 am (UTC)(link)
What countries give apartments to homeless people?

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Charity doesn't do that. It creates a class distinction between the people who have enough to give and those who depend on those people.

[identity profile] paft.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
d: What about giving apartments for working poor with families, first? At least they work, they care about their children, they are not drug addicts and they are law abiding citizens.

So you assume all of the homeless have no families (untrue. Quite a few families are homeless) don't work (also untrue) don't care about their children (untrue) and are criminals (also untrue.)

d: Let's face it: homeless are either mentally ill or drug addicts or both, at least in the United States.

It's stupid to assume this.

d: They get free food, free shelter, free medical care and, yes, free drugs.

What planet are you living on?


[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 01:21 am (UTC)(link)
Unless I'm mistaken, those who are responsible for creating and passing the legislation for the programs are also from a very different class bracket than those who would be receiving the benefits of those programs. If there's a distinction between the point you're making and the scenario laid out in favor of the programs, it's a distinction without any significance to the discussion, to all outward appearances.


But besides that, and considering I'm talking about interpersonal community charity, I don't see how what you're saying matters. If I have need because I don't have resources someone else in my community does, and he or she has more than enough to assist me, and does, why on earth am I going to care about that as much as the fact that my neighbor did not have to help me yet did so anyway? Something like that would carry no significance to you, if it was you in that scenario?

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
Likewise if we're going with amorphisms : then any society's values are reflected on the macro level by it's governmental policies, either federal, state and local.

To some degree, yes. With each there are varying degrees of filters those values necessarily end up passing through.

How many filters do those values have to pass through at the federal level? At the State level? Local? What about the interpersonal level? It's not intuitive to think that the more averaging out over a larger and larger scales doesn't have a significant (and most probable detrimental) impact on just how representative the sausage is that comes out the other side of the process ends up being.

You can forge a community between members that interact and assist because of their desire to do so. It's less evident how programs and even institutional charities do that.

Bragging rights goes to Western European countries that with their "cultural" background and governmental policies which gives them a much lower homelessness rate (e.g. the United States has about 3.5 million, Western Europe counts 6,500).

Bragging rights and rankings are only for those who see this as some kind of competition. Several of those countries, however, are about on average the scale of a number of our own States. Yet I am continually told that the State institutions are too small or somehow otherwise deficient in the ability to do likewise (still lacking in all of those, however, is any concrete reasons why that is necessarily so). I'm told the only way to go is to centralize.

I'm not arguing against the safety net. I'm saying it's not going to solve problems which have their roots elsewhere, in the culture. Putting the emphasis on programs as solutions is missing the point of what any program should aim to do.

[identity profile] dziga123.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 02:07 am (UTC)(link)
"So you assume all of the homeless have no families (untrue. Quite a few families are homeless"
If homeless have family they are eligible for Federal Program "Section 8" and they get free apartments.
If they work they, also, eligible for "Section 8" that will pay up to 90% of housing cost, depending on their income.

"d: Let's face it: homeless are either mentally ill or drug addicts or both, at least in the United States.

It's stupid to assume this."

"Nearly all of the long-term homeless have tenuous family ties and some kind of disability, whether it is a drug or alcohol addiction, a mental illness, or a physical handicap."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/09/AR2010070902357.html

d: They get free food, free shelter, free medical care and, yes, free drugs.

What planet are you living on?

I live on planet Earth.
"They get free food"
"Food Stamps" and "General Welfare"
"free shelter"
Homeless shelters.
" free medical care"
Medicare
" free drugs"
Methadone programs.
If you would live in the great country of mine, United States of America, you would know this.
Of course, they don't talk about this in Russia, that is why you've never heard about this.

[identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
"Homeless will still go to ER, because they have apartments, not medical insurance and still go to jail because they still be committing drug related crimes, apartments or not.
So with this program "each participant" will cost taxpayers not 16,670, but 27,670."

This is really the key point. There are quite a few homeless people who are alcoholics or drug addicts, quite a few who are mentally ill, and a whole bunch that are both. I'd suspect that a lot of those emergency room visits are for side effects from drug use (abscesses and ODs from heroin and numerous problems from alcohol abuse). These won't stop unless the person stops abusing substances. They may spend less time in jail, but then this could be accomplished if we just stop arresting drug users... unless/until they become violent.

I'm sure that having a home and some stability will make someone more successful in kicking their habit, but it seems this program assumes that treatment will always be successful for someone with a home and always fail for someone who doesn't.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 03:55 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah but we don't intend programs to bring people together, that's not what they're for.

I agree with you 100% that social bonds are very important, but charity doesn't do that.

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 04:39 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah but we don't intend programs to bring people together, that's not what they're for.

That's essentially my point. Solving problems of this nature requires communities to be closer-knit. I think it's foolish to expect anything more than band-aid treatment on the part of a program. That's not to say it doesn't have a place and a role, but that role is not in solving problems.

but charity doesn't do that.

If it doesn't than nothing can, as I see it. I mean, we're talking about interpersonal charity (self-sacrificing love of neighbor, without any intermediaries). If that doesn't do it, I can't think of anything else that substitute.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 05:39 am (UTC)(link)
I live on planet Earth. Homeless shelters. They get free food

Heh.

But it's abundantly clear you don't live in New York City. They can't handle the load here, and turned away record numbers of people from the shelters. (http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/pages/more-nyc-families-turned-away-from-shelter-than-ever) And some of that was caused by a reduction in Section 8 housing and other benefits, which in a city with rapidly increasing rent, with less rent control, made it impossible for some to stay in their apartments. In March 2011 New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg’s administration closed a rental-subsidy program called Advantage that was designed to help families come out of the shelter system

Free food? Most of the food banks are at their breaking point in NYC, and that was before the reduction in federal food assistance programs. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/food-banks-run-out-supplies_n_4660792.html) I won't even bother unpacking the rest of your points.
Edited 2014-07-07 06:21 (UTC)

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 06:11 am (UTC)(link)
Bragging rights and rankings are only for those who see this as some kind of competition.

No, despite that sounding like another amorphism, that's not the only way to see comparisions and outcomes.


Several of those countries, however, are about on average the scale of a number of our own States.

Like there's no statistical tools to adjust for comparing different things?

Yet I am continually told that the State institutions are too small or somehow otherwise deficient in the ability to do likewise.

That's certainly not the case with the program cited in the OP.

I'm told the only way to go is to centralize.

Basically you're suggesting that

You can forge a community between members that interact and assist because of their desire to do so.

That's essentially a rehash of Ron Paul's Libertarian argument for health care reform: our churches and family and friends took care of one another.

[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
Many EU countries are considered to have among the most socially advanced homeless support policies in the world. Among developing nations, countries such as Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Indonesia, Senegal, Singapore and Tunisia are praised for their efforts. In Brazil for example, cities such as Fortaleza, Recife, Porto Allegre, Santo Andre, and several others are considered to have quite effective housing programs. And in post-apartheid South Africa, much progress has been made in making housing policies more favorable to the poor.

[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 06:32 am (UTC)(link)
That still doesn't provide viable solutions to a problem as rampant as poverty and homelessness.

[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 07:43 am (UTC)(link)
Civilized ones, I presume.

Sometimes even the not-so-civilized. Mine certainly does, as backwater of a place as it may be. Example:

Here's where hundreds of Roma used to live in the suburbs of my town:

Image

Here's where many of them live now:

Image

And it was all granted by the municipality for free. Most of those people have jobs now, and are able to pay their utility bills.

And mind you, this is just some shitplace of a country at the ass of geography.
Edited 2014-07-07 07:44 (UTC)

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 11:48 am (UTC)(link)
I honestly wondered because I didn't know if any certain country did. If none do however but it's such a great deal, why don't they?

edit: it seems like from the comments below that actually some places do, and it may work too.
Edited 2014-07-07 11:50 (UTC)

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 11:49 am (UTC)(link)
Wasn't that what District 9 was about?

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